Yes, that was a bit on the slashy side, wasn't it?
Dean didn't really say anything to Sam he wouldn't stand by, imo, but Sam was pretty unforgivable. He's angry at his big brother for being vulnerable! Now he has to take care of him!
Yeah, I feel like Sam really let the cat out of the bag there -- he does regret having Dean back because Dean's "weak," Dean's "holding him back." Wow, Sam. Just...wow.
In the midst of the lovely hoyay, I actually feel like sorta...CRYING for Dean now.
Do you suppose he ever sits there and thinks he should have stayed in Hell? I just. I think that commentary you linked to earlier was right (it was you who linked?). What is Dean DOING here? I just keep feeling as if Sam just...really told the horrible, horrible truth there.
Yes, just because Sam was under a siren's spell doesn't mean he wasn't telling the truth -- in fact I think that was pretty much an "in vino veritas" situation. After all, we know that what Dean said to Sam was true. Damn, maybe Dean is in Hell.
Wow, I am really growing to hate Sam this season. It's like he's not Sam at all anymore. I dunno. I'm sufficiently kerfluffled at this point that I don't have any meta thoughts. Just -- JESUS, Sam, you can be one cold-ass mean son-of-a-bitch.
I agree. I'm glad I'm not a Samgirl because I'd feel obligated to defend or make excuses for this behavior. But you know, regarding "he's not Sam at all anymore"...I kind of feel like Sam always had this side to him. If Jess hadn't been killed and the Yellow-Eyed Demon hadn't come back into the Winchesters' lives, do you think Sam and Dean would have been close? Do you think there would have even been any place for Dean in Sam's life? I doubt it.
I'm still interested in him this season, though. I figure using his powers makes his pride worse. Also somebody on my flist pointed out recently that the thing about Sam is that people have always been about him. Dean revolves his life around him. He takes it for granted that he's important, that people do things for him, that they care about him. But I can believe Dean in Hell has screwed him up in ways he doesn't really get. He let him down by not being the all-powerful brother he always seemed like, he made Sam feel guilty. Now he's trying to make it back about Dean holding him back, resenting that now he feels like he has to step up and use his powers--even knowing that he really wasn't forced into it.
Man, I wish I could say I think you're wrong. But I don't, not even slightly.
Jesus. I need a fanfic story where Dean -- shit, I don't even KNOW what I need. Maybe one where Dean's finally had enough, decides he'll hit the road for a while.
In other words an AU, since Dean will NEVER do that. JESUS.
I think he's interesting too, but I'm wondering where they're going with this. Because right now, they've pretty much erased any sympathy I ever had for Sam and they either need to correct that, shed light on it, or just really go all the way with it.
I think this is an episode that really starts to show us where the season is heading - there HAS to be a big conflict/trauma/apocolypse or SOMETHING huge for the season ender and in MHO it almost has to be Sam taking a big dark dive... and it will probably be an end of the season cliffhanger because that is just how cruel our dear Kripke is - and as several others have suggested - next season will be the reclaiming/reconcilliation and reunion - but for now - I totally expect to see them get farther and farther apart - I just hope that we will eventually see how much Ruby has manipulated Sam and created the instances that he feels indebted to her for...In the meantime we are gonna get a pretty good angstfest to wallow/revel in. And I am, for the most part lovin it.
YES. This is a beautiful point. Really, if the supernatural hadn't intervened, they'd basically have the relationship we saw with the djinn, only probably less cordial.
I've always felt bad for Dean in that relationship because it's really hard to be the person who needs the other person and isn't needed back. As one of my favorite fics put it, "the person who loves the other person more is fucked."
The only thing that I can think of that can "redeem" Sam is that he really WASN'T Dean's Sam anymore, and I'm not talking about the siren influence. He did have that demon blood in him after all, and a switch has been flipped somewhere, and he's already on his way *there* if not already there. I think the moment he used his powers in 'I know what you did -', the Sam that we knew is gone.
I'm actually wondering if something happened when Lilith tried to kill Sam at the end of S3 and wasn't able to. Maybe she inadvertently flipped the switch herself.
Interesting that you bring that up because if Sam would think about Ava and Jake he'd realize that the more he uses his powers the deeper in he gets. He's getting so high on his own abilities that he's losing the capacity to judge right from wrong...if the writers really want to go all the way with this I think it'll be great but they can't be wishy-washy about it. They can't decide that of all Azazel's kids only Sam can fully develop his powers and still remain himself, remain good. Can't have your cake and eat it, guys.
I agree about the big dark dive and I hope the writers don't pull the punch at the last minute because it's Sam. I also want to see some justification for Dean's fears because otherwise it'll turn out that Dean really has been holding Sam back and that's got to change the tenor of the show. I see Sam going dark but the only thing keeping him from falling completely is Dean and yes, Season 5 will be redemption for Sam, reconciliation between the brothers and hopefully some sort of satisfying conclusion and yet OH, I don't want the show to end next year!!!
I think Dean subconsciously (or maybe even consciously) believes that he needs other people a lot more than they need him...unfortunately he's collected a fair amount of proof that this is true. Sam took off to college, Dad disappeared on him, Sam talked about going back to school if they managed to kill the YED (I'll never forget the look on Dean's face when Sam said that -- like someone had kicked him in the guts and run over his dog at the same time). It's little wonder that he didn't think twice about sacrificing himself for Sam. I'm sure he was convinced that Sam would carry on just fine after he was gone and, sadly, that's exactly what happened, so Dean now has even more proof that he's dispensable to those he cares about. :(
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Dean didn't really say anything to Sam he wouldn't stand by, imo, but Sam was pretty unforgivable. He's angry at his big brother for being vulnerable! Now he has to take care of him!
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Do you suppose he ever sits there and thinks he should have stayed in Hell? I just. I think that commentary you linked to earlier was right (it was you who linked?). What is Dean DOING here? I just keep feeling as if Sam just...really told the horrible, horrible truth there.
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I'm still interested in him this season, though. I figure using his powers makes his pride worse. Also somebody on my flist pointed out recently that the thing about Sam is that people have always been about him. Dean revolves his life around him. He takes it for granted that he's important, that people do things for him, that they care about him. But I can believe Dean in Hell has screwed him up in ways he doesn't really get. He let him down by not being the all-powerful brother he always seemed like, he made Sam feel guilty. Now he's trying to make it back about Dean holding him back, resenting that now he feels like he has to step up and use his powers--even knowing that he really wasn't forced into it.
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Jesus. I need a fanfic story where Dean -- shit, I don't even KNOW what I need. Maybe one where Dean's finally had enough, decides he'll hit the road for a while.
In other words an AU, since Dean will NEVER do that. JESUS.
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I don't want Dean to be all by himself though. We need Dean-shacking-up-with-Bobby fic. :(
And yes AU, of course.
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I've always felt bad for Dean in that relationship because it's really hard to be the person who needs the other person and isn't needed back. As one of my favorite fics put it, "the person who loves the other person more is fucked."
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Well, the others didn't have a devoted, self-sacrifying big brother to look out for them!
I agree too