WWJDLOL!

[oselle]

Slacktivist is my latest must-read blog. What Slacktivist mostly devotes himself to is a page-by-page deconstruction of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' Left Behind series. In case you're not familiar with it, Left Behind is hardcore fundamentalist Christian propaganda in the guise of fiction -- very badly written fiction. Anyone can criticize the LaHaye and Jenkins' "writing," but Slacktivist himself comes from an evangelical background, so he takes the series apart on a whole different level.

A quote in this week's edition caught my eye:

"In my most cynical moments, I sometimes think that the whole structure of Christian theology seems like an elaborate ruse to escape the unambiguous obligations set forth in the Sermon on the Mount."

Of course it's not just the Sermon on the Mount -- all the teachings of Jesus were about "unambiguous obligations" that usually had little or nothing to do with the external rules of organized religion and formal theology and everything to do with our obligation simply to love and to take care of each other...unconditionally.

A number of years ago I knew someone who was part of my Lord of the Rings message board. We were pretty friendly and used to chat on IM often, almost always exclusively about LoTR, I knew that she was a committed right-wing born-again Christian Republican but her views on real-world issues had never come up until one time on IM we somehow got on the subject of healthcare and she zinged me with, "Why should I have to pay for your lung cancer?" (I was a smoker at the time), and then sweetly added "Why should you have to pay for my diabetes?" (she was obese).

I dropped the subject because I literally had no idea how to respond to the beloved conservative fantasy that people only need medical care when they've been irresponsible about their health (and so therefore presumably deserve to pay up or drop dead). Also, I just didn't want to get into an argument with someone who was part of my fun online group and this was long before Abu Ghraib and Katrina and warrantless wiretapping and all the other horrors of the Bush administration so I wasn't as vocal on political matters then as I am now. But what I really wish I'd asked her was simply, "What would Jesus do?" As a self-described devout Christian, that should have been her primary concern, far outweighing any political or ideological loyalties. And frankly, I don't recall a phrase like "Why should I do X for you?" ever being part of Jesus' ministry.

I find few things more baffling than the easy coexistence between so-called Christians and conservative/Republican ideology, which is essentially about making and hoarding money, a very narrow and often hypocritically applied public morality, and about keeping people in their "proper" place -- all values that weren't exactly part of Jesus Christ's teachings. I can only assume that modern conservatism has irrevocably changed the Christian faith, at least here in America, into something that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ. In fact, I'm sure that if any public figure were running around today saying things like:

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

and

"I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

and of course,

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you."

That person would be utterly reviled by conservatives, including my good "Christian" friend from all those years ago. They don't care what Jesus said, or what Jesus would do. I rather wish they would stop calling themselves Christians and come up with something more fitting.

LOL, of course.

Comments

[vshendria.livejournal.com]

For me it all boils down to a question: How do conservatives manage to view themselves as good people? Because I do believe that everyone (with a few, pathological exceptions) wants to consider themselves a good person. How can a conservative politician believe for one second that they are working for the good of others?

Their will to selfishness, to a lack of imagination and a lack of empathy must be overwhelming. It overwhelms truth, because there is so much information that simply shows that they are not doing good. It isn't a matter of "belief" or "differences of opinion". It's a matter of truth. That sounds judgmental on my part but there it is.

Unfortunately, far too many people are brought up in a culture that marries conservative values with a distorted version of Christianity. If they are content not to think any deeper they can just run with that, I suppose, but I wouldn't blame the religion. Why is it that some people learn, or choose to care more deeply for the plight of their fellow beings, and want to build a society around that -- and others don't?

As for these so called Christians...this too is Christianity. I'm not dissing Christianity. I'm not a hater. Every religion has a life of its own and from a cultural-perspective, many cultures have chosen to ignore the Sermon on the Mount, which, unfortunately, is unlikely to have been spoken by Jesus himself. It doesn't matter, though. I would love for people to look to Jesus as a model of such a beautiful ethical system.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

I literally had no idea how to respond to the beloved conservative fantasy that people only need medical care when they've been irresponsible about their health (and so therefore presumably deserve to pay up or drop dead).

~~~~

I find few things more baffling than the easy coexistence between so-called Christians and conservative/Republican ideology, which is essentially about making and hoarding money, a very narrow and often hypocritically applied public morality, and about keeping people in their "proper" place -- all values that weren't exactly part of Jesus Christ's teachings.

I quoted both of these bits, even though they're really two issues, because you hit right at the heart of my own feelings. The first section is a perfect pithy description of how our current health-system woes came to pass. The second -- well, you summed it up yourself. I do not get it.

Have you been following Rachel Maddow's ongoing C Street/the Family coverage? Jeff Sharlet's book, etc.? It explains a lot about modern-day "Christianity," that power, not goodness, is the current grail. Those in power are exempt from simple morality, because the ascent to power = God's/Jesus's approval. I mean, talk about telling people perzackly what they want to hear, right?

I'd mock it, but it scares me too much.

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

*loud long applause*

(after the lol of course)

This is a thorn in my side all the time. I can't understand why people who supposedly follow the path of Jesus Christ, one of the most gentle and kind and giving souls ever to be on this earth, would be aligned with right-wing conservatism...

[oxer12.livejournal.com]

One of my best friends (a guy I've known for over 10 years) is a hardcore fundie Christian. I'm surprised we've lasted this long as friends, quite frankly, because he has said stuff to me that's jaw-dropping. Among other things: I'm going to hell because I'm Catholic (which is not Christian in his eyes); anyone who isn't saved is automatically going to hell (including a hypothetical person who has never even heard of the big JC); I'm a horrible person because I like The Gays.

I don't even pay attention to him anymore when he starts spouting that nonsense. I just feel sorry for him, because his world view is so narrow and judgemental. And he's desperately unhappy, but would never consider re-thinking some of his positions. It's knee-jerk belief in a system that's been pounded into him since he was a kid, and he simply cannot see anyone else's point of view.

It's just sad. I often wonder what Jesus must be thinking sometimes, when he sees what a cock-up people have made of his teachings.

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

They don't even follow the golden rule, and Jesus went farther than that. It boggles the mind how Fundies can indulge in the most heinous behavior and still call themselves Christians.

[sixth-queen.livejournal.com]

the beloved conservative fantasy that people only need medical care when they've been irresponsible about their health

Here's another piece of their beloved Scripture to throw back at them:

---------
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. -- Ecclesiastes 9:11
---------

[tskterata.livejournal.com]

I remember Alfre Woodard on Politically Incorrect years ago as the lone liberal Christian on the panel (maybe on the show, ever). She was angry that the Democrats had allowed the Republicans to 'own' Christianity, when there were Christians like her, people who had actually read the bible, understood the new testament, followed the teachings of Jesus Christ and found Republican ideology abhorrent.

In my opinion, fundamentalist Christians are not really Christians.

My mother raised us in the Episcopalian church until we moved to Houston, Texas when I was in my teens. There, my older sister fell in love with a local boy who was a devout member of the Church of Christ (a religion that is legally considered a cult in Germany). She converted and convinced my mother to convert as well. I tried attending their church a few times, but I was so turned off by the "we're all going to Heaven and everyone else (especially those sexually deviant Gays!) are going to Hell, that I refused to go ever again. My experiences in my sister's adopted church, and with southern fundamentalists in general, completely turned me away from Christianity. It seemed to me that Christians were all about following a strict set of arbitrary rules, and cared nothing about actually helping other people.

I spent two decades being angry and hating these 'Christians' who had decided that my friends and I were beyond the pale because we had sex before marriage and loved people of the same sex.

Then I moved to Canada.

It was an eye opening experience to live in a secular country whose citizens believe that the defining Canadian value is that we all have to take care of one another. This belief does not spring from any one religion; it's just understood by all to be the right thing to do.

I now belong belong to a Lutheran Church that prints in its program every week, "We welcome people from all walks of life whether they are single, married, divorced, separated, partnered, gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered." The church is filled every Sunday with a broad mix of people. Our pastor is a scholar who is working to get the global Lutheran church to allow homosexuals to marry in the Church. He is not considered a radical or an outsider, but is a respected member of the Lutheran community.

Sorry to clog your journal with my story. This was my very long-winded way of saying that I believe the problem is not with Christianity, but with the way Christianity has been corrupted by Republicans and American fundamentalist Christians.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's like a whole mental quagmire to pick apart. Sometimes it's just blatantly sad--like I remember a letter from a kid in a scholarship contest I was reading where he talked about how he was so inspired by reading about heroes from WWII, and then so sad to realize how many of them went to hell because of all their wicked ways like smoking, drinking, having sex and not being Christian.

I think that's why the ones I have no sympathy for are the ones that apply that ridiculous standard to others and justify their own behavior. There's probably some people raised in that system that actually try to apply it fairly to themselves. There's really only 3 choices: leave the church, accept that God is a horrible person or justify all the cruelty to others and make excuses for your own behavior when you screw up.

Which is probably why so much of it focuses on conformity rather than morality. You're not a good person by being kind to others or lifting a finger to help anyone, you're good by being born and staying in a small town, not being gay, and being afraid and suspicious of anyone different from yourself. Things that they did naturally because of who they were become marks of morality (like having children or having sex with women or going to the same church their parents went to).

I saw a friend last night who just came from a funeral for a friend who was a Wiccan. The funeral was like a tragic comedy. Took place in her family's Baptist right-wing church and focused exclusively on how she was in a better place because she knew Jesus (unlike stupid Catholics and Muslims) and everyone at the funeral who wasn't a Baptist needed to be saved now too.

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

Monothesim in any form celebrates a hierarchy of power, which is used as both inspiration and a tool of fear. It's almost inevitable that practitioners will seek to replicate the definition of Good represented by the apex of their power structure (God/Jesus), because to do otherwise puts them in danger of eternal damnation. Right-wing Christians in the U.S. are encouraged to align themselves with Good by ascending the material ladder of success and dominion over others on the earthly plane, no matter what, and using the power they amass to exert pressure on nonbelievers to toe their dogmatic line. This is called "spreading God's word." Success in this is a sign of God's favor. So yes, we CAN blame the religion.

How does this translate into the right-wing attitude toward universal health care? Why should Friend X pay for Friend Y's lung cancer/diabetes? By the lights of the Christian right, lung cancer is your reward for choosing to smoke, just as diabetes is your LoTR correspondent's reward for choosing to eat unwisely and avoid exercise. "You reap what you sow" becomes a scriptural excuse (one of many) to vilify those whom they see as being made to suffer for their mistakes. When people fall ill through no fault of their own -- perhaps due to some inherited genetic predisposition -- why then, this is God's judgment on them for faults we can only imagine, perhaps even the Mark of Cain. Who can question the wlll of God, hmm?

There's a book in our public library about managing personal finances. I checked it out one time before realizing it was intended for "born-again Christians." It contains an entire chapter on "struggling" with the "problem" of debts owed to the "unsaved." Yes, this is apparently a big dilemma in the born-again community. The author concludes that a saved Christian does not need to honor such a debt.

I think that's pretty revealing right there.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

The politicians are motivated by greed for money and power. Manipulation of people through religious sentiment is a good way to get both. What baffles me more is how do everyday conservatives who are not politicians see themselves as good people?

I think it comes down to having a very limited definition of "good," one that is synonymous with being "nice." All of the conservative Christians I've known are perfectly "nice" people -- polite, friendly and often generous towards their friends, family and community. At the same time though, once you get to know them and know how they think, you realize that their core beliefs are in direct opposition to Christ. And that's what I really want to know -- "good" is a highly subjective idea, but the teachings of Christ are hardly open to interpretation. So while anyone can see themselves as "good," how on earth do conservatives see themselves as Christians when they ignore the word of Christ every day? I don't blame the religion either, because whatever these people are, they are not Christians.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

Yes.

Really not much more to add to this.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've caught some of Maddow's coverage of The Family. Jeff Sharlet's claims about what goes on at C Street are so shocking that I almost want to believe he's making them up or exaggerating them but they totally back up something I've suspected for a while -- that Christianity has been corrupted into a whole different faith, one that has no longer has anything to do with Christ.

You know, if I believed in Satan and demonic forces, I would really think that what's happened to Christianity has been the work of Satan. Christianity has always been flawed but now the word of Christ is literally being ignored by huge numbers of people who somehow consider themselves devout Christians. The very definition of Christianity is being changed into something that doesn't have anything at all to do with Christ. This is a profoundly radical shift that has been happening under our noses. It is heresy of the highest order, being committed by the very people who consider themselves the standard-bearers of Christianity. I don't have any trouble imagining Satan delighting in this. The word of Christ being reduced to greeting-card shmaltz while "Christians" devoutly commit themselves to ignorance, greed and bigotry...in the name of Christ! Diabolical, isn't it?

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

I spent three weeks in Texas 17 years ago. It was enough. My son is talking about marrying a girl there and moving to Texas. He thinks Hubby and I should pack up and follow him.

No way. Not ever. I hate Texas. I hate the weather, and while I hesitate to say that I hate Texans, I most certainly hate their views on life and religion.

We are UU's and our church is also filled with a broad mix of people, although unlike the Lutheran, they aren't necessarily even Christian. We have Pagans, Buddhists and Witches too. And lots of gay and lesbian couples.

I think it isn't really a matter of whether one is 'Christian' but rather that the self-righeous ones (of *any* religion!) scream louder. And kill more abortion doctors.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

focused exclusively on how she was in a better place because she knew Jesus (unlike stupid Catholics and Muslims) and everyone at the funeral who wasn't a Baptist needed to be saved now too

Wow. Just ... wow.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Because they aren't following the path of Jesus Christ...they just don't realize it. They think that being a Christian is about following rules of morality (mostly sexual morality) that men made up. Here in America it's also tied into these very calcified notions about "patriotism" that mostly hinge upon never, ever finding fault with America. None of which has anything to do with Christ.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

It contains an entire chapter on "struggling" with the "problem" of debts owed to the "unsaved." Yes, this is apparently a big dilemma in the born-again community. The author concludes that a saved Christian does not need to honor such a debt.

Okay, this time I had to scrape my jaw off the floor.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be able to be friends with someone who thought I was going to hell and whose religious beliefs were rooted in bigotry...and I wouldn't give a damn how he was brought up. Being brought up one way or another is not an excuse for turning off your brain when you're an adult and supposedly can reason things out for yourself. You must really value his friendship to be able to tolerate that.

I often wonder what Jesus must be thinking sometimes, when he sees what a cock-up people have made of his teachings.

I used to believe without a doubt that Jesus was the son of God but I just don't believe it anymore. I think that some guy named Jesus did walk the earth at one point and was a very spiritual and wise person who had a profound influence on history but if he truly were the son of God he would not allow the faith that bears his name to become so corrupted. If he is the son of God, then what is he waiting for?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

LOL, I recall that one of the health insurance companies that testified before Congress a few weeks ago was named "Golden Rule Insurance." I mean really -- what can you do but LOL?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've become convinced that the only part of Scripture any of them know is that passage from Leviticus about teh gay abomination.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

we're all going to Heaven and everyone else (especially those sexually deviant Gays!) are going to Hell

In Slacktivist's ongoing analysis of the Left Behind series, he often comes to the conclusion that LaHaye and Jenkins, and the audience they're writing for, are just unimaginably selfish and cruel. The worldwide suffering of the "end times" described in the series means absolutely nothing to them and their only concern is their own salvation. The hell with everyone else -- literally. This is hardly a new approach. The fire-and-brimstone crowd has always been with us, but this new crop of Christians seems to take a truly savage delight in imagining the torments in store for those who are not "saved." This is not Christ-like. This is sick.

It was an eye opening experience to live in a secular country whose citizens believe that the defining Canadian value is that we all have to take care of one another.

True followers of Christ would also believe that we have to take care of one another, and would be certain to elect leaders and create governments that were, essentially, Christ-like. Sadly, there are no true Christians, or at least not enough, so it falls to the secular world to ensure that people are taken care of. I have thought for several years of leaving the United States because I also want to live in a country that is not corrupted by this deranged and completely un-Christian religious fanaticism. I've considered Canada but England appeals to me more. I'm afraid I've waited too long and that I'm too old to go. But I am still thinking about it.

I believe the problem is not with Christianity, but with the way Christianity has been corrupted by Republicans and American fundamentalist Christians.

Yes, exactly.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Conforming to a set of rules that someone gives you is actually quite easy, which is why I suppose these "Christians" have chosen to go that route. Following Christ, really following Christ, is hard. Nearly impossible. Love one another as I have loved you? Yeah, easy for you to say, fella. It's much, much easier to don a purity ring and hate gays and vote Republican. You'll sleep easily at night, secure in the belief that you are saved, and that all that stuff that Christ actually said is just something pretty to put on a wall hanging or perhaps a decorative plate.

unlike stupid Catholics and Muslims

LOL...I was well into my twenties before I found out that "Christians" think I'm not only not a real Christian but actually going to hell. And I found out the strangest way, by going to a "Christian" bookstore in the early days of one of my personal faith revivals. Imagine me being in the glow of a renewed faith and interest in God and walking into this store where I was confronted by text after text telling me how doomed I was and how it was a true "Christian's" duty to let me know it. LOL!

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

Yup. One of these days, I must see if the library still has that book and write down its ISBN, so people can find it and see for themselves.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

So yes, we CAN blame the religion.

Yes, we can blame this religion. This version of the religion. But this is not what Christ taught, even though I agree with you that monotheism is flawed in that it does create a centralized power structure. The teachings of Christ, albeit based in monotheism, have absolutely nothing to do with achieving power or material success and if anything, warn followers away from pursuing those goals. The failings of the religion are the fault of man, not Christ. If all the people who call themselves Christians decided truly to follow Christ and to be Christ-like in all their actions and decisions, it would radically change the world for the better.

By the lights of the Christian right, lung cancer is your reward for choosing to smoke, just as diabetes is your LoTR correspondent's reward for choosing to eat unwisely and avoid exercise.

Yes, of course. But again, this is not Christ-like. This is a selfishly human and also fearful response to suffering (It can't happen to me...if it's happening to you, you asked for it, etc.). Christ sent his followers forth with the orders to "tend my sheep," not to "tend my sheep if you think they deserve it based upon your own prejudices and even then only if you feel like making the effort or loosening your purse strings." Christ's love was unconditional. His forgiveness was never-ending. These people who call themselves Christian are not Christians in that they are not Christ-like and not doing what Christ told them to do. In fact, they are using "God's will" as an excuse for ignoring Christ.

I think that's pretty revealing right there.

Even scratching the surface of born-again thinking, especially as it relates to real-world matters like finances and work, is surreal. This is one of the things Slacktivist talks about when discussing the Left Behind series and how it only seems bizarre and repellent (not to mention badly written!) to people who are not fully indoctricated in fundamentalist belifs. To people who are part of that world, it all makes perfect sense.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Except LOL!!

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

:)

I have a hard time doing that, I find it so scary.

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

I remember reading somewhere (Richard Dawkins? Christopher Hitchens? one of those guys) that in a survey of self-identified devout Christians, a majority thought the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Martin Luther King.

Perhaps I should have prefaced my remarks by stating that in my way of lookingn at this, the teachings of Jesus can be understood well outside the context of the monotheistic power structure. Although he did make a few references to fathers and kingdoms, his message was, as you say, mostly about simply treating others with compassion. I should also have made a clearer distinction between the politically motivated Christian Right (which a friend of mine calls the Christian Reich) and true followers of Jesus. I maintain, however, that most Christian institutions are a great deal more about institutions than about Christian, and that the defining feature of monotheism lends itself to such abuse.

I've never read any of the Left Behind books and can only imagine what a ghastly imapct they must be having on their readers.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I remember reading somewhere (Richard Dawkins? Christopher Hitchens? one of those guys) that in a survey of self-identified devout Christians, a majority thought the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Martin Luther King.

This doesn't surprise me at all. Ignorance is a built-in feature, not a bug, of American fundamentalist Christianity. Besides, that Sermon on the Mount sounds awfully librul.

I maintain, however, that most Christian institutions are a great deal more about institutions than about Christian

This has been the case pretty much since Emperor Constantine converted and the quest for riches and power in the name of Christ are no different now than they were during the Crusades. What I think is different is such a vast population of everyday people who have decided to call themselves Christians while actively ignoring Christ. In the current atmosphere, something like the abolitionist movement (which was very faith-based) would never happen because today's "Christians" would have no problem with slavery...in fact, they'd probably support it wholeheartedly as "God's will."

I've never read any of the Left Behind books and can only imagine what a ghastly imapct they must be having on their readers.

Some believe their success has been artificially inflated by organized mass buy-ups of the books by fundamentalist churches. This no doubt is true but I'm sure the books have achieved real popularity among their target audience and have had exactly the intended impact of reinforcing and validating these people's dangerously callous and selfish beliefs.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think the volume of these "Christians" gives a skewed impression of their power and then I realize that their representatives were running the whole goddamn country for eight years with a big swaggering "Texan" right up there at the top. God have mercy upon us.

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

Are there churches actively opposing these pernicious influences?

[oxer12.livejournal.com]

We're still friends because there are extenuating circumstances that contribute to his holding on to those beliefs so tightly, and I'm willing to overlook them. Also, we don't talk about religion anymore, which definitely helps!

I do still believe that Jesus is the son of God, but my own personal faith wavers daily. It gets harder every year to believe, and that makes me sadder than anything. :-(

[oselle.livejournal.com]

If there are any, they are way off the radar. I know that there are some grassroots Christian organizations that have tried to promote social responsibility and counteract the fundamentalist agenda but they are small and not very influential. As for mainstream churches, the sad fact is that evangelism has experienced tremendous growth while traditional, non-radical denominiations, like the Episcopal Church, have seen their membership shrink, so even if they did try to oppose these influences they just don't have the pull. And while the Catholic Church is big enough to do it, they have to be cozy with the evangelicals because of the abortion and gay-marriage issues (even though evangelicals think Catholics are hellbound heretics). So I guess the short answer to your question is "no."

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

One of the overlooked Biblical predictions is that in the end times, the true followers of Jesus would be heavily persecuted.

Doesn't sound like a description of the Fundamentalists, now does it?

I have always kept that prediction in my mind - I think it's in Matthew - in watching the rising popularity of this 'born again' stuff. They scare me, and they have for decades. It is they who will be persecuting us. And they are already.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

I wonder, often, where they came from. In the '60s we were headed in the right direction, as people learned tolerance. All of a sudden, and I don't remember when, it was popular to go back to church, and at the time I didn't realize what a dangerous turn that represented.

I count myself as so,so lucky that I'm not enmeshed in that thinking.

I didn't realize when Bush Sr was elected what a turn that was in the wrong direction, but he wasn't just plain crazy like his son.

The whole country is nuts now. Can't confirm Sotomayor because it would be a victory for the Dems. Can't have health coverage for the poor because it would be a victory for the Dems. (And who cares about the poor, anyway?)

I don't know where you stand on the whole 'God' thing, but for myself, I think it's important that we who are not blinded by selfishness and dogma do our share of praying for what is right.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

One of the overlooked Biblical predictions is that in the end times, the true followers of Jesus would be heavily persecuted.

Aha, but the fundamentalists believe that they are persecuted. This despite the fact that the leader of the most powerful country in the world for eight years was wholly sympathetic to their agenda, that last year's Republican vice-presidential candidate was a through-and-through evangelical and that the Bush-era administration, the justice department in particular, was stuffed with fundamentalist standard-bearers like Regency University alumna Monica Goodling. A rock-solid foothold at the very pinnacle of American government hardly sounds like "persecution" to me but reality and facts are of minimal importance to these people -- their skewed perceptions are all that matter.

The family that lives across the hall from me are conservative "Christians" and they subscribe to a number of like-minded publications, including a Focus On The Family magazine aimed at kids, which they sometimes leave down in the laundry room. I remember picking one up and reading a short story about a "dystopian" future America in which Christians were being rounded up and imprisoned by a radically atheistic government and I remember laughing because the chance of the opposite of that happening is so much more likely. But this is how they see themselves -- as a marginalized and persecuted minority that must constantly fight for its very survival.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

reality and facts are of minimal importance to these people -- their skewed perceptions are all that matter

Yep.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I have mixed feelings about what happened in the 1960s. The progressive achievements of the 1960s and the 1970s were of great value but they'll forever be tainted by the well-publicized excesses of that era. My mother tells stories of how her parents' East Village neighborhood turned into a ghetto of young heroin addicts and unfortunately that sort of thing became the face of 1960s-era liberalism for a lot of people. The Republicans, who should have been thoroughly disgraced by Vietnam and Watergate, wisely played off of people's fears of crime and strung-out kids and general anarchy to stage a triumphant comeback with Ronald Reagan's election only ten years later. The conservative backlash of the 1980s went hand-in-hand with the rise of fundamentalist religion. That's where they came from.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

Ah. Thank you. I was really too busy during that time working, raising kids, and fighting for my health to be paying attention to what was going on. The only thing I was really aware of was that we had gone from racial equality and rights for women to fundamentalism. The first thing I knew was that Reagan was spouting something about "... so that women don't have to work and can stay home with their families ..." and I knew *that* wasn't going to work!

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

That's scary.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

I'm a practising Christian who believes that Jesus was (and is) the Son of God and I also happen to live in a country which has national health care. Which I am just fine with (although the system isn't perfect). I have no problems whatsoever about my taxes funding my fellow citizens' health care.

Evangelicalism is a broader umbrella than the ultra right-wing in America would have you believe.

Also, I get extremely uneasy when any particular faith becomes so closely identified with any one particular political party.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

There's a book in our public library about managing personal finances. I checked it out one time before realizing it was intended for "born-again Christians." It contains an entire chapter on "struggling" with the "problem" of debts owed to the "unsaved." Yes, this is apparently a big dilemma in the born-again community. The author concludes that a saved Christian does not need to honor such a debt.

OK, as someone who would pretty much identify as evangelical, I can only say in response to such folly: WTF?

And every person in my orthodox little Anglican church would say the same. (Although they might not use that exact expression, LOL).

Yep, that's what following Jesus is all about ... being selfish and dishonest and having no integrity!

Lordy. Seriously, Lord have mercy.

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

I was at the library earlier today, looking for that book. I didn't find it (either on the computerized list of books using "Christian" and "finances" as keywords or on the shelves). I guess it's been rotated out.

What I also noticed is that what was once a large and thriving section on spiritual ideas, including NeoPaganism, Wicca, women's spirituality and so on, now consists of exactly 10 books, 4 of which have the word "cult" in their title. The rest are vanilla mythology. By contrast, there are 22 shelves (each 36" wide) of books on Christianity, half a shelf each on Judaism and Islam (including exactly one copy of the Qu'uran), and nothing at all on other religions of the world, such as Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, et cetera. I find this truly alarming.

But I don't want to hijack oselle's LJ to start ranting. I see there are thoughtful and open-minded Christians here and I don't wish to be offensive to them. I checked out Chris Hedges' American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America and will content myself with that diversion for a while.

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think we've gone way past the stage where simply laughing in their faces will make them go away. In fact, I think they're counting on our being naïve and tolerant enough to do nothing more than that.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't think "evangelical" means the same thing here as it does in England. If you were an American-style evangelical, you probably wouldn't be a member of the Anglican church anymore, you'd be "born again" and belong to an evangelical church.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Just so you know, these LOLs are in MY SCREAMY VOICE. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

[mara-snh.livejournal.com]

I had my suspicions ;-)

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

There is a strong evangelical wing inside the Church of England, actually, alongside the Catholic and liberal wings ... and sometimes crossover between all three 'wings'.

Evangelicalism in England, back in the 18th and 19th centuries, was a faith that was prepared to get its hands dirty, and inspired a lot of social action.

(There is an old saying that the British Labour Party owes more to “Methodism than to Marx”.)

The phrase 'born again' (from John 3) is a simple but profound theological concept that has got completely hijacked by an unwelcome political connotation.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't know what evangelicalism (or "evangelism?" I think it's evangelism in American English) was meant to be, but here it's become wholly linked to fundamentalism -- i.e., a rigid and literal interpretation of the Bible, which usually manifests itself as, for example, a belief that evolution is false and that the earth is only 6,000 years old or a conviction that homosexuality is an abomination. This interpretation of the Bible does NOT, somehow, seem to lend itself to following either the spirit or the letter of Christ's ministry.

I'm not at all part of that world and you really have to be an insider to understand it. I know that people here who claim they are "born again" believe that they, and they alone, are "saved," the rest of us are not...including other Christians who are not "born again." It's a very insulated world and it's got its own lingo and behaviors. In America it is also inextricably tied to political conservatism and the Republican party. I don't think there are very many Democratic evangelicals. Liberty University, an evangelical college founded by Jerry Falwell, recently disbanded the Democratic student club for being at odds with the school's mission (the list of things that Liberty was opposed to included "socialism" and "hate crimes legislation," the latter of which would impose harsher penalties for violent crimes against gays and minorities). I think the club was reinstated after some unwelcome publicity, but that very action shows you what the evangelical mindset is like here in the U.S. Does that sound like your brand of evangelism?

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

I'm actually very familar with the evangelical constituency because I grew up in it and still identify myself as one. It most certainly has its more 'literalist' wings here: but it is no way as heavily politicised as it seems to be in America. A lot of theologically conservative Christians here, for example, had no time for Bush.