(no subject)

[oselle]

I would like to hear from British people and people currently living in England or anyone who's ever moved to England about what life is like there. I have been thinking about leaving the United States for a while, and England just seems like the most likely choice...even though I've never been there. But I'm a lifelong Anglophile, I speak the language and it's just...I don't know. As a New Yorker, London just seems like a natural choice.

Am I fooling myself? You tell me, British folks and expatriates alike. At this point, I would not advise anyone to move to the U.S., unless their present home was some plague-ridden hellhole. Would you recommend England as a good place to live? Is London the best choice, or are there other, less crowded options? Is the healthcare good? Safety? Quality of life? Could I expect life to be more gritty "Prime Suspect" or lighthearted "As Time Goes By?" Is the food as legendarily bad as everyone says?

I'm going to be 40 in September and the thought of growing old here is scaring the shit out of me. I'm seeing what is happening with my parents and I doubt things will be much better in 30 years. The dollar is totally sucking compared to the pound, so I probably couldn't make a move anytime soon...but any advice you could offer would be a tremendous help. Thanks!

Comments

[aussiepeach.livejournal.com]

I’d live in England over the US for sure, and you’d probably adapt better than me because you’re used to the cold and big city life (I didn’t last more than a month in central London - spent eight in Kent, so not familiar with the other cities). You also have to be prepared for all that distance between your friends and family. It’s isolating and can wear you down. (Although you might count that a blessing).
The food’s fine. We’re spoiled for fresh produce in Australia, but you can certainly eat well in England.

London’s bloody expensive, too - so it would help to get a good job, but that’s the case wherever you go. I expect selling your place would earn you enough to get a decent spot in London, but the Brits would be best to advise you there. A good bolt-hole counts for a lot. Quality of life is what you make it and where you live, I guess. Safety-wise, no worse than NY I think. Possibly better.
Have you considered taking a holiday there and sussing it out?

I adore the place and the people and still love going back. Would be tempted to move to Scotland/Edinburgh if I did it again, although winter there would be hard to tough out. Not as crazy crowded as London, and very beautiful. Haggis.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I have a friend who lived in Edinburgh and she loved it. Didn't care much for the dating scene, but then she was in her early twenties at the time and I'm...not. So my social calendar is not much of a concern. London does look horrifyingly expensive, but Edinburgh does not seem too much better. All of the really nice places to rent cost about what they would in New York, at least in the part of New York where I live. Alas -- limited means are so limiting.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

Hey! :)

I think you'd like England just fine, Oselle. :cool:

I've lived here all my life and I like it here. :D I've visited 13 countries but I've never actually lived abroad. A home girl through and through ... a true hobbit!

Anyways, what can I tell you?

- London is simply one of the best cities in the world. More sedate than NYC, not as beautiful as Rome ... but London has its own dark, gritty, hardbitten sort of beauty. There is SO MUCH to see and do in London, and it's also very green, with loads of parks. I live on the fringes of greater London so I'm near the countryside too, and I've been commuting into the city for over 20 years. And I love it.

- Having enthused about London, I must also say that it is really, really, REALLY expensive. :( On the upside, our museums are free ...

- The other premier cities are Birmingham (second) and Manchester (third biggest city). Everybody is always very rude about Birmingham, because of the accent (!) and because it can't really match London, but my sister has lived there for 27 years and she's very fond of Brum. It's also a very green city. Like a lot of our cities, it's experienced a lot of regeneration in the last 20 years: the city centre is really very nice now. Manchester I don't know at all, having only been there once. It seems to be regarded as rather more cultured than Birmingham. :D Like all our cities, it has its truly grotty bits. And then its nice historic bits.

- Other places to live. Oxford is a lovely little city but MEGA-EXPENSIVE. East Anglia is less expensive ... so is the North of England.

- Our countryside is wonderful. I need say no more.

- Our roads are crowded. It took me TEN HOURS to drive from London to Cornwall last year, TEN HOURS. It's only 278 miles away, for the luvva pete. I got stuck on the M25 (Europe's biggest carpark) and then there was a huge queue on Bodmin Moor because of roadworks. Sigh. This is why I love holidaying in France, which has the same population size as Britain (about 60 million) but is FOUR TIMES BIGGER. So the roads feel emptier.

- Healthcare. Well, it's free. And there are many moans and grumbles about our NHS, in many cases deservedly so, but when it works, it's brilliant. My father had a heart attack in August 2005 and received superb care at a NHS hospital. You don't have to go private to get decent healthcare in this country. Not that our system is perfect. But, as I say, when it's good, it's excellent.

- Food. Hey look, we do cream teas. And fish and chips! What more do you want? I know good restaurants in London. Every single suburb or market town will have at least one decent Indian restaurant. Customer service here can be rubbish. I'm learning to act like an American and demand good customer service - which can be like pulling teeth, sometimes. :p

- Read Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island. Made me laugh like a drain, and it's sooooooooo true!

- My parents' life is rather like "As Time Goes By". So it's not entirely mythical. As for "Prime Suspect", yes, there's plenty of that - not that I've seen much of it.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Have been looking into London a bit (real estate etc.) and wow, it's way more expensive than New York. Are there no "outer boroughs" to London, where ordinary people can afford to live, like in New York? You live in Kent, don't you...is that considered a suburb? Do they have commuter rail? At any rate, this isn't something I'd look into for at least a couple of years. Maybe the dollar will be a little more robust by then. Right now, my money's worth would be halved in England...depressing.

You're just so bloody charming though. I don't know if I could stand it. Traffic jams on the Bodmin Moor -- even that sounds like something out of a fairy tale!

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Wow – how long is a piece of string?

The quality of life in England depends, as elsewhere, on who you are, what you do and where you live. As a young, well educated professional woman you could reasonably expect a decent standard of living over here – though I’ve no real knowledge of the state of the market in your line of work.

In general terms, the cost of living in the UK is higher than in the US, though the differential is not as great as it was, say, 20 years ago and would be less obvious to someone who’s New York based at present. The cost of housing, in London and the South-East, however is particularly very high and might be the main barrier to relocation. Despite Government intervention, London is still the centre of gravity for business and looks set to remain so, though there are plenty of other very pleasant cities with decent employment opportunities.

We do, of course, have the benefit of the National Health Service, creaky and inefficient though it may be, and I regard the country as reasonably safe, although there has been an increase in crime levels, including violent crime, in recent years - indeed, there was a fatal shooting by police in my dull commuter town only the other week.

English food (and dentistry FWIW) has improved by leaps and bounds over the last decade or two but if you’re looking for romance, the UK is like everywhere else – not enough good looking men!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't care about men! Right now, I'm more concerned about a comfortable old age, even though that's a good 30 years off (only 30 years??? :( ) There must be some parts of London that are considered reasonable, just like New York...or not? Or are the reasonable parts of London reasonable because they're gross and no one in their right mind wants to live there?

I think I'd get lost in London, a lot. I'm very used to numbered streets, laid out on a nice sensible grid. I get lost south of 8th Street because suddenly every street has some silly name.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Yes, there are varioations in price across th capital and you can roughly assume that you'll pay less the further you get out. The BBC has a useful webpage that gives monthly updates on average prices via house types. Whilst there are pockets of deprivation, there actually aren't a lot of places in the centre of London that are dreadful. A lot of the boroughs that I used to administer the upban regeneration grants for in the late 1980s are virtually unrecognisible since the rise of Docklands.

London's layout is fairly haphazard, but the centre of it is pretty small - something you may not notice if you stick to the tubes. What I did to get familiar was to go there on a weekend, chose two or three fairly distant places that I wanted to visit and then timetable the day so I could walk between them.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I suspect that London is a lot like Manhattan in that what were once considered "bad" neighborhoods have all but disappeared. Parts of Manhattan that are now among the most expensive, like SoHo and even the Upper West Side, used to be isolated no-man's-lands. And now that's spreading past Manhattan, to places like the Bronx and Brooklyn. I'm all for urban renewal, but it seems like the renewal only favors people who can afford million-dollar condos, and where the heck is everybody else supposed to live? Where do real people live in London?

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Where do real people live in London?

The short answer is that I don't have the foggiest. Everyone I work with commutes in from the surrounding counties.

[juliebeth.livejournal.com]

I lived there for four years and absolutely loved it. We were stationed there with the US Air Force, so our housing and utilities were paid for and we were given a cost-of-living allowance. I would live there permanently if I could afford to, but that just isn't possible, unless we manage to win the lottery.

London is my favorite city, but it is godawfully expensive. Any time we go for a long weekend we end up spending about a thousand dollars. Granted, we aren't trying to do it on the cheap and we stock up on books and whatnot, but still . . .

I've not lived in the US for the better part of four years now, and I'm in no hurry to go back. With luck, we'll be in Germany until autumn of 2010.

If you have any more questions or whatnot my e-mail is: jbethmorgan@yahoo.com

[oselle.livejournal.com]

London seems frightfully expensive, much more than New York. When I was studying in Paris, I used to see Londoners in the supermarkets every weekend, and even back then it must have been cheaper for them to stock up in Paris than in London (I found Paris remarkably cheap, but that was 20 years ago when the dollar was worth something). You're fortunate to have a reason to live abroad so often, but it must be unsettling at times. Do you think you may be stationed in London again?

[juliebeth.livejournal.com]

Probably not, unfortunately. With the horses to board, we couldn't afford it. Even equine care is much more expensive there than here in Germany.

When I lived in Suffolk 25 years ago I took a shopping trip across the Channel to Calais and Boulogne; the Brits stocked up on booze and cigarettes.

No, we'll have one more stateside assignment, then we'll be retiring to a property we've bought in the upper peninsula of Michigan, far away from the lunacy.

I'd live in Britain again in a heartbeat, though. We're spending a long weekend in London in mid-November to celebrate my 50th birthday, and I can't wait to go.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Have fun! I was thinking about going to England to celebrate my 40th this September, but I'm now planning to spend it with my sister in Maine. Maybe next year!

[the0neru.livejournal.com]

London is super-expensive and very crowded; however, it also has pretty much *everything*. Scotland has proved to be a nice place to live... and it's less expensive than most places in England. It just depends how much rain you want to put up with, I guess. ;)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I love the rain. And mist. And hills. And lakes. Scotland is starting to look better to me. Don't know if I could muddle through the accents, though. Sometimes I can't even decipher what Billy Boyd's saying on the LoTR discs!

[the0neru.livejournal.com]

Heh. I still have to have a translator sometimes. Your ear adapts, but there are all the regional accents, dialects, etc., to try to understand as well!

[the0neru.livejournal.com]

oh, and yes the food lives down up to its reputation. however, there are also some nice (mainly comfort-food-type) things that it's hard or impossible to get in the States.

healthcare: private - not so bad. NHS - okay if you're not seriously ill and/or can wait six months to be seen. i think my quality of life is about the same as it was in the States, with less air pollution; people are encouraged to walk more here, but there's less emphasis on an overall healthy lifestyle.

long story short - if it wasn't for my family being in the States i'd have no problem living here permanently.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

What made you move to Scotland, if I may ask? And was it difficult?

[the0neru.livejournal.com]

my husband is from here, and at the time we married his job presented more opportunities for advancement than the one i had in the states. also i thought it would be cool to try living somewhere else for a while - i didn't want to wake up at 70 and realize i'd lived in a two- or three-state radius, or even just one country, for my entire life.

at first it wasn't so difficult, because we dated long-distance (VERY long-distance!) for almost five years, so just being on the same continent was such a novelty that, between that and the 'honeymoon phase' thing, i didn't really have much of a problem being here. also i was able to get back home that first year inside six months of my move; we haven't been able to swing such frequent trips since then, so it's more like a year between my visits home now, and that's hard.

getting myself and the cats and my possessions here wasn't as much of a hassle as i'd thought it would be - it IS expensive, though. the difficulty has been more along the lines of trying to get a bank account (OMG come over as a student if you can - that makes so many paperwork-type things SOOOO much simpler. i had no idea that my credit history wouldn't 'transfer', and you HAVE to be employed - or a student - to open a bank account. same thing with medical history - none of my prescriptions from the states were valid here) and a job (although some of the difficulty there may have been more to do with where i applied).

like aussiepeach said, the distance from your family and friends is rough. and the isolation thing is true as well - i still don't have any friends here who are anywhere as close (no pun intended) as my friends from home. however, LJ is a HUGE help there, and there's e-mail and IM and you can get cheap phone plans so you can call home without it costing an arm and a leg.

i've been posting about life here over at thistleandixie - don't know whether any of that will be any help to you or not. you are, of course, more than welcome to come and visit if you want to see what glasgow's like. :)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I remember when I was studying in Paris I opened an account at the Banque Nationale de Paris and I don't recall anyone even asking me if I was a student. But I must have had to produce some ID -- I must have given them my passport and student visa. Argh, if only I'd been more savvy when I was younger -- and more prescient -- I would have moved years ago! Losing my entire credit history at this stage would be a HUGE problem. All of those creditors are global companies anyway -- it's absolutely ridiculous that someone my age would have to lose her entire history just because of a move.

I'd miss New York City itself the most. My circle of family and friends here is pretty small. Flights between UK and New York are not terribly expensive, from what I've seen.

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely check it out!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I am not British and feel like this is very unhelpful but...I did live in England for about a year (but in school, which is different). jewelsong just moved there this year when she got a job and she's been having a great time, so you might want to read her lj and ask her questions. I enjoyed living there a lot. Jewel is I think right outside of London.

One thing is I know at the moment London's really expensive, even more than New York, but that could change.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've been following Jewelsong's journal with interest. She's in such a honeymoon phase right now, though. I was like that when I first moved to Maine. And then...reality settled in.

London's scary expensive. I'm horrified by the rents. And that's speaking as a New Yorker. I'd probably pay about $2,000 a month for the sort of apartment I have now, if I could even find something like it. Then again, if my apartment were in Manhattan, I'd pay at least that much for it, too. Ouch. Our money is worth shit over there right now, so a move won't be possible until that gets a little better. IF it gets a little better.

[caoil.livejournal.com]

Er, are you sure you don't want Canada? We're very nice... ;-)

I don't think I have any helpful info personally, having never been there, but a dear friend of mine, a fellow Ringer who I consider my little sister, has just moved to London (well, Surrey) this week. From Australia. She's been itching to get over to the UK for ages, and now this week she and her sister have finally done it. If you want, I could let her know you're curious about what it's like, and maybe she can give you little updates here and there as they're settling in? Just a thought.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

No, don't bother your friend. She's busy settling it and all! But thank you for the offer!

I adore Canada, and have traveled there often. A friend of mine highly recommends Vancouver. I don't know though, it almost seems too close? Still, it's not off the table!

[caoil.livejournal.com]

Well, Vancouver is *nice*, I say that as a long time resident, but it's also very expensive. Houses in the middle part of the city are cruising around $800,000, and apartments in Vancouver (not the suburbs) are over $200,000 at this point. Hell, you can even pay that much in the suburbs now!

I want a nice quiet space to build my hobbit commune. Somewhere out in the wilderness.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Why is everything good so expensive!?!

[elwenlj.livejournal.com]

I pass. I'm a cynic.

;)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I prefer the term "realist"...in which case, I'd probably want to hear your opinion the most!

[cs-luis.livejournal.com]

I have no advice, since I've never been to England either, but I think it would rule if you moved there. I bet you'd like it.

You should email Karen about her experience in York - the city was lovely, I think, if you want a much smaller alternative to London.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've just finished reading about Anne Bronte's trip to York (while she was dying unfortunately). Sounds lovely (the city, not the dying). Looks like Karen has checked in below...

[playscape.livejournal.com]

I lived in York for only 6 months, and I was a student and didn't hold a job or require health care, so obviously I can't offer any impressions of what that side of the spectrum is like...however, I still think about England all the time and how quaint and peaceful and small it felt compared to the US. I'm no authority on what it's like living there longterm, but I'm happy to babble about other stuff if you don't mind.

If I could move back I'd move to the North again, partly for the same reasons I studied there 4 years ago: money. London is a very exciting place and it's a real international city like NY, but it's so expensive I don't see how anyone could live there unless they're very well-to-do. (I remember reading that something like 70% of people who work in London don't actually live there. Don't quote me, though.)

Another reason I'd move North again is the complete romanticism of the place. It really felt like a haunted, beautiful, mystical old place. I felt like I was a part of something literary or historical just being there. I was living in a small city but was so close to the wild moors also. One of the things I love about England was that there were many small cities--like York--that were so small and yet so vibrant and active and alive. York is roughly a 2-hour train journey to both London and Edinburgh and I was very happy to be living my own quieter life up in York with easy access to a more bustling experience if I chose. The other thing I loved about York was the fact that its appearance hasn't changed much in the past 1000 years or so, considering how much everything else has. I mean, I was walking on gravestones everywhere I went!

Despite what the natives told me, I though the train system was GREAT. Also, I loved being able to pay for many things with coins!

Now, one of the tricky things about the UK to an American is the fact that it is so very different from the US. It could drive you a little crazy for awhile. You look everywhere for a piece of home and you'll find it, only it's wearing red instead of purple. Hard to explain. They don't have the same candy. Not that that's a deciding factor. And I think their selection of birthday cards is very strange.
Email me with any more thoughts/questions, it's always good to hear from you. kjosephson@gmail.com

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Another new name. You've changed your name so many times, I don't even remember what the last one was! I know you were "Bethel" at some point. Years ago, OMG.

Don't get me started about moors. It makes me want to go haring off right now. Everything I've read about the north of England sounds like heaven. I've been reading way too much of the Brontes, and just finished watching "Miss Potter," a biopic about Beatrix Potter that was filmed up in the Lakes District. The Lakes District is out -- it must be crazy expensive. Is York expensive, and I wonder what people do for a living? My experiences with Portland, Maine have made me a little wary of small, vibrant cities. If you have no entrepreneurial or artistic spirit (like me) there isn't much to do, work-wise.

I know what you mean about things being different, sometimes in a way you can't put a finger on. I was looking at apartments in Edinburgh, and every single kitchen had an oval-shaped sink. Oval? Why oval? Is it a Scottish thing? Does the northerly climate require an oval kitchen sink rather than a square one? It's those little differences that can add up to the biggest culture shock, I think. When I studied in Paris, all the toilet paper was pink -- I mean, it simply was not sold in any other color. And a really horrible pink, too. It freaked me out so badly that when I came home for Christmas, I went back to France with good ol' USA white toilet paper in my suitcase.

[playscape.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can't seem to stop changing my name. I tried to get Bethel on LJ so the folks of '02 would know who I was, but it was taken. I'm pretty much done with LJ though, so changing my name again would be pointless.

We should make a pilgramage to Yorkshire and Haworth and see the moors and Bronte country and GO CRAZY. When I was there we were able to drive through them in a car, which is the only way to go--large tour buses simply can't make the route on the steep, winding roads. It's just fascinating the way the land rises up in the horizon--the moors are so steep you're suddenly looking straight up at more LAND.

I live in a small, vibrant city now and you're right--it's quite not like living near a state capital or large city with lots of large companies to choose from. There's a university here, as in York, that I'm sure provides lots of career opportunities, but also here in Charlottesvilles there are plenty of artists and a popular local music scene. Lots of hipsters. I got a strong artsy feel from York also, though I know it has or had a strong railway industry. Mostly I think York is a tourist destination, because in the summer it really gets crowded. Here's the wikipedia link for York: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York
What I read about the demographics made me chuckle a little, though. It says that the city is almost 100% white (which I definitely noticed) and has a slightly higher population of elderly people than the national average, which brought back memories of being stuck in crowds behind really slow-moving old people. (My friend and I commented that the old people out in public in York seemed like the kind of old people that would normally be shut away in nursing homes here in America. Not that it's a bad thing--just an observation.)

The little thing that drove me crazy in England were the separate hot and cold faucets. UM. One sink, two faucets. No such thing as warm or cool water unless you fill your sink up like a pool. After awhile I started loving it, though. Like, I loved to hate it.

Also, I'm going to have to watch "Miss Potter". I went through a minor Bronte obsession last year and could easily fall for something else in that vein (and there's no such thing as "too much of the Brontes).

[oselle.livejournal.com]

We should make a pilgramage to Yorkshire and Haworth and see the moors and Bronte country and GO CRAZY.

That sounds like an absolutely BRILLIANT idea.

York sounds beautiful, in which case, I'm sure it's impossible for a person to make a living there. Probably lots of low-income service jobs, like any tourist town. After checking real estate in and around York, I find it about as expensive as Queens, NY. It would be more reasonable if the dollar were doing better, but I saw a lot of apartments selling for around 150,000 pounds, which at today's rate is $300,000. That's about what things go for in my neighborhood now, and I wouldn't be able to afford that no matter what the exchange rate. Depressing.

I really enjoyed "Miss Potter," and am mystified why this movie, which had two big-name stars (Renee Zellwegger and Ewan McGregor) came and went without any notice. Was it even in theaters at all? Probably Beatrix's life was so uncontroversial that it wasn't good box office material. There is a movie coming out about the Brontes this year, with Michelle Williams from "Dawson's Creek" playing Charlotte. Sounds awful.

The little thing that drove me crazy in England were the separate hot and cold faucets.

Ah, now I know why some apartment listings trumpet "mixed faucets" as if this were some great innovation -- I guess in England, it is! The crappy apartment where I grew up had this type of bathroom sink. The secret was to cup your hands and run them back and forth between the hot and cold faucets.