(no subject)

[oselle]

I was debating whether or not to do my usual Friday-night review because I know people would rather hear positive things but what the heck. You gotta take the bad with the good, yes?

So let's boogie:

Lilith
I know enough about the apocryphal history of Lilith to feel that they should have gone with a different legend, or at least a different name. Lilith crops up in Talmudic lore and has been traced back to Mesopotamian demonology. No matter the tradition, Lilith is always associated with female sexuality in the most negative way: she's the voracious temptress, a sexually ravenous force of destruction, Satan's favorite fuckbuddy. She's sometimes said to be the mother of Cain, sometimes she's spawning a host of demons. Basically, nothing good happens when Lilith's around and her evil is primarily connected to her sexual appetite. That's kind of a loaded topic. You really wanna go there, show?

Now, maybe the writers just dug the name and some aspects of the lore but don't mean her to be the Lilith. Maybe they think most viewers won't make the connection (in which case, they should know better). Maybe they think embodying her in a little girl will cancel out the sexual baggage with which the name has traditionally been connected. No matter what they thought, I think they should have thought twice.

Frankly, I think a world ruled by Lilith sounds pretty cool. One of Lilith's major offenses was that she wouldn't "accept a status of subservience and inferiority to Adam." My kinda gal. If it's Winchesters vs. Lilith, I know who I'm rooting for. Sorry, boys.

The Blessed Virgin
Interestingly enough, the episode that introduced a traditional representation of negative female energy also featured the stock symbol of a "virtuous" woman, i.e., a virgin. I don't know whether to just roll my eyes over this or be genuinely annoyed. Virginity being synonymous with "virtue" is as hoary of a cliche as the magical healing powers of sex (Philip Pullman, anyone?). I guess the whole idea here was that they wanted to show that the sacrifice of "an innocent" was on the table and they...couldn't think of any other way to represent innocence? And of course she's the very picture of "virginity," from her wide eyes to her demure hairdo to her white, lacy blouse. Just in case we didn't get it, they also made sure to load her down with Catholic trinkets -- rosaries, statues of the Virgin Mary, a big honking silver cross around her neck. You know, cuz that's what virgins look like.

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry discloses to Elaine that his new girlfriend is a virgin. "I didn't know!" Elaine exclaims, concerned that she might have said something offensive. "Well, it's not like spotting a toupee," Jerry says. Don't tell that to the Supernatural writers, Jerry, who apparently think it's just that easy.

I am, however, eternally grateful that they didn't up the cheese factor by having Dean relieve the fair Nancy of her terrible burden. I didn't quite know how to feel about the way he did react to her. The whole thing just felt...really, really corny.

Henriksen
Killing him off was just wrong. His dialogue with Dean (fantastic chemistry) perfectly set him up to become a hunter in his own right. So they...blew him up. I've lost count of how many great supporting characters this show has killed or relegated to obscurity. Henriksen shouldn't have been one of them.

And The Rest
I don't think a tape-recorded exorcism would work. I don't think it should work. The power of the exorcism comes from the exorcist. It's not just the words. If that's all there is to it, then just put it on loudspeaker and drive around America blasting it from the Impala.

Little girls dressed like they're on their way to dinner at Mummy and Daddy's country club (with evil Mary Poppins in tow) don't scare me all that much. I hope they're going to do a Species on her and give her an accelerated growth spurt, because I don't really care to see Sam facing off against an eight-year-old. Ah, but then they would have to deal with that whole sexual thing...

There can be no excuses for Bela after this point. None. She ratted them out to the FBI, for God's sake. "You don't know me at all," she reprimands. No, and I don't want to.

Since the demons were obviously afraid of Ruby, or at least no threat, why the hell didn't she stay behind to fight with her magic demon-killing knife?

But Still...
Dean bleeding is always fun, and Sam doing some admirable wound-stanching was a nice touch. Though I think that HUGE bloodspatter on the wall would have produced an injury that even Dean Winchester could not have shaken off so easily.

LOVE the boys trying to negotiate their shackles. Made me think of Twister and awful movies like Stir Crazy. I'm ashamed that I even know about Stir Crazy.

Overall...I think they should have left this as episode 11 and kept "Mystery Spot" as the last episode before hiatus. Sam turning off the lights on that empty motel room was more affecting than any of the shoot-em-up in this episode. Moments like that have made this show what it is for me.

Comments

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with your last paragraph. In fact, I thought about it on the way to my office this morning. :) But perhaps they thought people'd like 3.12 more because of its action. I'm not really into action, so.

Thank you so much for the information about Lilith. Oh dear. Yes, are they going there? *rubs hands* LOL.

Henriksen. I still feel very sorry for him. And that chemistry? Hmm. YOu know what. I began to pay attention to any interaction Dean makes with other male characters starting Malleus ep. and I thought he was - too passionate when interacting with them: the husband eating maggoty burger, the doctor treating Bobby in Dream ep., and last night with Henriksen. But perhaps it's just me. :D

[oselle.livejournal.com]

No, I don't really think they're going there, I suspect they just appropriated the name. In which case, they should have done a little more research. I realize that this show makes its lore up as it goes along, so their "Lilith" is going to be whoever they want her to be in any given episode, but it's a loaded name with an ugly, misogynistic history and personally I think they should have stayed away from it. Find another demon or make something up.

too passionate

Passionate in what way? Angry passionate or...passionate?

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

I meant passionate. :D

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Naughty, naughty.

Dean and Henriksen had great chemistry together and I think part of the reason for that is that, because they're both guys, they're allowed to play the roles straight without having to muddy the waters with any forced sexual tension. I think that's why Dean also had great chemistry with Ellen -- it was made pretty clear that Ellen was "too old" for Dean so they didn't have to tiptoe around any potential romance. It's probably my biggest beef with the introduction of female characters who are meant as sexual tension -- you immediately have this "forced" aspect to it that, in my opinion, throws cold water on any genuine chemistry the actors might have between each other. Maybe that's why so many of us tend to pick up on slashy elements between two male characters -- because sex is off the table (at least in canon) there's more room for us to see a real bond developing.

Smokin' new icon, by the way.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

Thank you re: new icon. :D

What is initially meant to be sexual tension turns to be a real tension. :)

[pensive]

Man the first thing I thought when Lilith was brought up as the new foe was "damn it now we have to deal with some cheesy hot babe to torment the Brothers sexually, and yet still be as much of a jerk as Bela. BLAH."

The fact she was in a girl's body was actually a little creepy (and half of a relief, unless they DO go Species on her). But blah to half-assing mythology for the sake of a cool sounding name. Blah I say!

I agree with you that Dean probably shouldn't have been able to brush off that gunshot so easily. And how does his "deal with the devil" so to speak, affect his mortality? I missed a few eps and may have not gotten the memo.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

But blah to half-assing mythology for the sake of a cool sounding name.

"Half-assed" is very much what I was thinking. If they're not just going with "Lilith" because it sounds cool (always a possibility), then it's like they want to flirt with her sexually-charged history but then coyly back away from it by making Lilith a little girl. And that's stupid because IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER THAT SHE'S A LITTLE GIRL. She's an ancient demon, as old as Satan himself, who just happens to be walking around in a little girl's body, for whatever reason. So they're only defusing the sexual aspect of Lilith in a really shallow and unsatisfying way, making her a child so they don't have to "go there." That's not just half-assed, it's a cheap cop-out.

Oh, and regarding Dean's mortality -- I don't think his "deal" has any effect on his physical person. He's definitely going to die one year after he made the deal, but that doesn't make him immune to death during that year, at least I have no reason to believe that it does. However, considering how many fatal injuries this man has blithely weathered during the course of this series, I'd assume that he's just generally deathproof, deal or no deal.

[pensive]

I don't think his "deal" has any effect on his physical person. He's definitely going to die one year after he made the deal, but that doesn't make him immune to death during that year,

See that helps clear things up a little. It would be very devilish indeed to take him in a year but also not protect him from coming sooner, eh?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I can't see demons being charitable enough to extend any sort of protection to someone who's sold his soul, can you? If he gets shot or hit by a car (or has a desk fall on his head, or gets electrocuted or...) sometime before his "year" is up, he'll die and go to hell. If none of those things happen, he'll die at the end of the year and go to hell.

Bummer.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Quick question on the Lilith front, being as how you seem to know far more about such things than I do - if they were set on having a female adversary to counterbalance the male Azazel while retaining the connections to Christian demonology, is there an alternative character they could have used who doesn't carry the same gender-specific baggage as Lilith?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

If they were hell-bent (pun not intended but happily coincidental) on having a FEMALE demon, then no. The sources I have on the subject say that Lilith is the only female demon to be given a name (although that isn't her only name. She supposedly gave something like 17 of them to the prophet Elijah). The thing about Lilith is that, unlike other demons, her lore is ENTIRELY bound up in sex. Lilith is, quite literally, the demonization of female sexuality (and female pride, female ambition, etc.)

This show makes up its lore as it goes along and I think the writers cherry pick assorted names with no real concern for whatever traditional theology is behind them. After all, there's nothing in their characterization of "Azazel" that makes any real reference to whatever various Hebrew and Christian theologians think Azazel actually was. So I'm pretty sure they just picked "Lilith" because it sounded cool and they wanted a female demon, for whatever reason (most likely the cool factor again). But as I've said elsewhere, it's a name with an ugly, misogynistic history behind it, one that's wholly associated with the "evils" of unchecked female sexuality. Pairing Lilith's introduction with an episode that also puts forth the "virtue" of virginity just felt kind of strange to me.

I do NOT think the writers are misogynistic and I am sure that they were NOT attempting to make any sort of statement on these issues or to get edgy or whatever, but the overall effect, to me, was a great big WHAT THE FUCK?

As far as other named demons go, the theology is pretty conflicting. Satan is now considered pretty much the same as Lucifer, Beelzebub and Mephistophiles, but, depending on the source, they were all different demons. My Dictionary of Angels lists 103 fallen angels in the Appendix. Lilith is not one of them -- she was never an angel.

By the way, if you are at all interested in this stuff, invest in a copy of Gustav Davidson's Dictionary of Angels. I first bought this about 15 years ago and I'm happy to see it's still in print. If there's anything else out there that gives such a thorough rundown of Hebrew, Christian and Islamic lore on angels and demons...well, you'd probably have to go to Bobby Singer's house to find it.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Pairing Lilith's introduction with an episode that also puts forth the "virtue" of virginity just felt kind of strange to me

The show can often be horribly heavy-handed when to comes to its theme of the week. If the writers are aware of Lilith’s associations with female sexuality then I would think that Connie Nancy the Virgin turned up in this episode for much the reason that Cassie was in an episode associated with racism and Ben in one about attacks on children.

Personally speaking, I’m still quite surprised that they’ve as gone down the route of using “actual” demons, because it not only gives the potential for causing more offence but also changes the premise of the show quite radically.

By the way, if you are at all interested in this stuff, invest in a copy of Gustav Davidson's Dictionary of Angels.

Thanks for the rec. I am massively ill educated in matters theological – as far as I can recall, most of my Religious Knowledge classes at school consisted of being read to from God’s Smuggler!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

If the writers are aware of Lilith’s associations with female sexuality

I'd find it really hard to believe that they're not aware, but I really, really hope that none of those associations are going to come into play. I don't think my eyeballs can handle the rolling that would result. I imagine (and I hope) that they're just going to do what they did with Azazel -- use the name, adopt just enough of the lore to be able to claim "this is a high-ranking demon" and then make up the rest. There's nothing in Azazel's traditional mythology to suggest that he went around recruiting children or burning mothers up on ceilings, so I hope they give Lilith's mythology the same treatment.

Personally speaking, I’m still quite surprised that they’ve as gone down the route of using “actual” demons, because it not only gives the potential for causing more offence but also changes the premise of the show quite radically.

Agreed, although the legends of most demons or fallen angels aren't as offensive as the ones associated with Lilith -- I mean, Lilith didn't even start out as a demon, she was human and then became a demon over the sin of not wanting to subjugate herself to Adam. Apparently, that's enough to make a woman into a fiend. Um...ick.

I'll admit that the use of "real" demons has a little bit of cool factor (as in, "Oooh, Azazel, I heard of that guy!") but it does seem to set up the Winchesters as some sort of religious warriors. I'm sure that's not the premise they're going for. After all, the "traditional" way to beat these demons is to be very holy and ascetic and yeah, they're not going there.

Something about using "real" demons kind of feels like they want to have their cake and eat it too. Get a sort of geek credibility by using real demons but then throw out any of the "real" mythology associated with them in favor of whatever works for the show. But then again, that's hardly unprecedented. The mythologies of these demons are such an encrustation of conflicting ideas from rabbis, popes, saints and storytellers, all of whom basically made this shit up as they went along. Who's to say that Goethe's version of demons is any more credible than Kripke's? In the case of Lilith, I DEFINITELY want Kripke & Co. to come up with their own version because the alternative is a real turnoff. Bleah.

I am massively ill educated in matters theological – as far as I can recall, most of my Religious Knowledge classes at school consisted of being read to from God’s Smuggler!

Well, I never even heard of God's Smuggler, so there you go.

Connie the Virgin...Dragnet, right? :)

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

You right about the whole religious warriors thing. I bought into the show because it was about ordinary people fighting urban legends - that (along with the lighting and music etc.) was what really set it apart from the slew of similar shows. I don't particularly like the emphasis on demons they have now and I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole Messianic overtones that it's been getting since the YED stopped being just a generic demon and aquired a Biblical association (even if it's not a very accurate one).

Well, I never even heard of God's Smuggler, so there you go.

It's a book by a Missionary who used to smuggle Bibles into Communist Russia in the 1960s. Very popular in the fluffier end of Anglicanism in my youth.

Connie the Virgin...Dragnet, right? :)

Yup. Haven't seen that film for ages.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't particularly like the emphasis on demons they have now and I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole Messianic overtones that it's been getting since the YED stopped being just a generic demon and aquired a Biblical association

Yeah, and they're digging themselves ever deeper into the whole Biblical apocalypse showdown, aren't they? If they go any further they're going to have to bring back Jesus Christ himself.

Urban legends was a great concept but it's also limiting. Most urban legends and regional folklore have a lot in common and it wouldn't have been long before they'd have started repeating themselves. The X-Files had a much wider field to play on because Mulder and Scully were free to track down everything, from spooks to aliens to serial killers to...Bigfoot. Supernatural doesn't have that kind of liberty so I think they DO need a broader story arc to ensure some longevity. But the apocalyptic stuff isn't working for me either. The whole psychic kids thing seemed to come to a very anticlimactic conclusion, as did Azazel himself. Right now I still have no idea who Sam is supposed to be or why an army of demons would even be interested in being led by a human. And now that they've had to add two new characters the whole show feels vaguely aimless.

Episodes like "Mystery Spot" and "Dream a Little Dream" have been, IMO, the best of this season, and they both pretty much ignored the demon war, apocalypse, or whatever it's supposed to be. Can we just have 40 minutes of angst + Sam and Dean hugging every week?

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I too was disappointed with the way the psychic kids storyline fizled out with so many questions unanswered (what about the next generation? Why were Mary's friends killed? What was Croatoan all about? Why was Sam the only one with a normal sibling? etc.) and the way that they got rid of so many promising characters. I really liked Andy and Ava (and the others had potential as well if only they hadn't all been killed as soon as they appeared) and would far rather have had them stay around than what we got instead.