(no subject)

[oselle]

I've been wondering in just what condition Dean will come back from Hell. Latest from Mr. Kripke is that Dean will have "little recollection" of his time in Hell and part of next season's "mystery" will be uncovering just what did happen to him down there.

Let me start by saying I KNEW IT! I FUCKING KNEW IT, KRIPKE!! Remembering Dean's deathbed amnesia in "In My Time of Dying," I just KNEW that they were going to go the same route.

On the one hand, this is good because it allows Dean to come back essentially unchanged as a character. I don't want him to come back as such a traumatized wreck that he isn't Dean anymore. Although I'll confess a great fondness for traumatized wrecks, especially when they look like THIS:



Sorry. I was just dying for any excuse to use this picture. Would you just LOOK at this gorgeous creature? It should be illegal to look like this. It's a public hazard. Jeez. Of course, this picture also makes me want to lick my hand and flatten down those WICKED COWLICKS on his head. He's soooo adawable. He is! Yes he is! Yeth he...

Ahem.


But on the other hand, I feel like going the whole "repressed memories" route makes for psychological drama that I'm not sure I'm interested in. If Dean truly does not remember what happened to him, what would be the point of unearthing the "mystery?" And how exactly is Sam supposed to do that? Take him to a shrink? Have him hypnotized? And why would he do that?

Now what I like, sick twist that I am, is the idea of Dean coming back remembering everything...but claiming that he doesn't. I know some people get pissed off when Dean keeps things from Sam (or vice versa), but to me, this is pure Dean. He doesn't talk. He's not into sharing and caring. He holds things in until they tear him apart.

I find this idea so much more interesting than just "Dean doesn't remember." This makes for a real mystery -- Dean knows what happened and we know that he knows, but Sam doesn't. I can see Sam just being so happy to have Dean back that he doesn't ask questions. He accepts Dean saying that he doesn't remember and is happy to leave it at that. But the whole time, we're all sitting there knowing that Dean is holding in something awful. Wondering what it is. When it's going to come out. And what will happen when it does.

I can see the new character, Rufus, being part of this. Dean's not going to talk to Sam or Bobby about this, much as he loves them both. Sometimes there are things so awful you can only tell them to a stranger...and Rufus is a particularly clued-in stranger. By his own admission, he "knows things." Dean's going to remember Rufus telling him that. If he spills to anyone, it's going to be Rufus.

Of course, whatever happened to him in Hell has to have some repercussions for mytharc. It can't just be torment; that Hell is a place of torment isn't much of a mystery. No, Dean's going to have to learn something down there. Something about Sam...or about their mother. Something terrible. Unspeakable. Now there's some rich story fodder.

But Dean just not remembering? That's not as interesting.

Comments

[vshendria.livejournal.com]

But I want Dean to change! I want to see him learn from his experience, perhaps even become more emotionally mature...but before that, I want to see him as a traumatized wreck! I do, I really do.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I know I know! But I don't want them to drive the trauma into the ground. See, doing it my way lets us have the best of both worlds -- a changed Dean who's still Dean enough to at least try to keep that old tight rein on himself. Then it can all start to leak out in some horrible slow attrition of angst and OH the possibilities!!

[vshendria.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. I see. That does sound perfect :D

[alchemie.livejournal.com]

He's soooo adawable. He is! Yes he is! Yeth he...

Just like you're adawable. Yeth yew are!

The picture has kinda discombobulated me so you're not going to get anything coherent from me.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the problem with pictures like that. No one's gonna read this post.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

That's not true. What picture?

Eheheh.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't know. There's no picture on this page of some emerald-eyed, lush-lipped demigod in an open-neck shirt with his hair all stuck up in cowlicks. None at all.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

Actually, what I'm afraid of is that with all these, Supernatural will take a different course altogether. I mean, isn't a TV series supposed to be following some kind of patterns and not delve too deeply into something unpredictable?

Oh right. Sorry. I'm just too afraid to face whatever is in store for Dean. It's shaking me. :'(

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't think the show will take a different course altogether but I know what you mean. One possibility that I've long opposed is the idea of Sam and Dean eventually winding up as adversaries, and that's where a lot of people seem to think the show is going to to. I don't see that working out well for anyone. They've backed themselves into such a corner with Sam's mytharc and Dean in hell that I don't know how they're going to get out of it in any sort of satisfying way.

[eken95.livejournal.com]

I'm not just saying that I think Kripke is wonderful and that whatever he does will be great....oh.. actually I think I am. I've been caught out many, many times before with this naive trusting attitude but Kripke hasn't let me down yet.... except with Bella. Oh bugger.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I wish I was in that trust-Kripke camp but I'm not. To me, he seems to take a "Ready, Fire...Aim!" approach and then he's left having to clean up things that "didn't work," instead of foreseeing that they're not going to work. Like the whole psychic kids storyline and the Roadhouse setting -- Kripke just got sick of them so he wiped them out. And then yeah, Bela -- after a whole miserable season, he realizes she wasn't "working out." And the question of what or who Mary Winchester really was is still hanging out there, and strike or no strike, there's no reason why that couldn't have been brought up at least once more after this season's second episode. And I already see Lilith being a big mess for Season Four, especially with all the "misogyny" accusations flying around, do we really want our two manly men saving the world from the whore of Satan? Nice subtext there, Krips.

Don't mean to be so negative but this show seems to open a lot of pitfalls for itself...and fall right into them. It's almost become a delighful surprise when Kripke really gets something right -- he usually pulls it off with the one-shot episodes but the big seasonal storyarcs tend to get very, very bogged down, IMO.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Now what I like, sick twist that I am, is the idea of Dean coming back remembering everything...but claiming that he doesn't.

That was the one that I was hoping for. After two seasons of being rather underwhelmed by the "is Sam going Darkside?" non-plot, I can't say I relish one of "did Dean go Darkside?"

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Kripke said that Dean definitely WON'T be a demon but demon and darkside aren't necessarily the same thing. That's one reason why I don't relish Dean's experience in hell being a big "mystery." The other reason is because well...it's boring. And they've done it before. Dean didn't remember being dead, and Sam didn't remember being dead. And Dean was oblivious to everything that was happening in "Mystery Spot" (I'll give a pass on this one since it was the Trickster playing on Sam, not Dean). But still -- enough with the amnesia. It's a lot more interesting for Dean to know, don't you think?

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I’ve now read the interview and I have to say, was anyone expecting Dean to be saved?

Other than the obvious “the writers can’t be arsed to come up with something”, the only reason why I can think that they would repress Dean’s memories of Hell are that he’d gone bad (become a Trojan Horse?), learned something about Sam or learned something useful for the fight. I have no problem with any of those as plots in and of themselves, it’s just that the last few “big mysteries” have fizzled out without resolution and I’d like Dean’s time in Hell to have at least some impact on the plot and character development.

As for whether it’d be more interesting to have him remember – a qualified yes. It’s only qualified because of the crock of shit that Buffy turned into when she came back from the dead with her memories intact.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I actually did hear a number of people saying that they were amazed that Kripke "went there" and killed Dean and sent him to Hell. I guess some folks have no concept of "cliffhanger." If Kripke had saved Dean's skin at the last minute (or just left us with a clock striking midnight and fade to black) it would have been the lamest thing ever, so at least they didn't screw that up (although I'll never forgive them for tacking on that CGI Hell).

I'm also concerned about Kripke saying that Dean's coming back to a landscape that's "changed a lot." Exactly how long (in natural time) is he supposed to be gone? Are they going to pull a One Tree Hill and have Season 4 suddenly opening with "X years later?" That actually could be interesting (I think Battlestar Galactica did this too, and both shows received some critical praise for it). But I don't want to be deprived of the Season 4 premiere opening with Sam still cradling Dean's shredded body. And I don't want to be thrown in the middle of a completely different universe where Sam really is the Antichrist and has been living without Dean for such a long time that he's forgotten they were ever hunters.

Right now, I'm going to say that this is just Kripke being a tease. It's only May. I doubt they even have anything mapped out for Season 4 yet, much less written.

It’s only qualified because of the crock of shit that Buffy turned into when she came back from the dead with her memories intact.

Yeah but Dean was in Hell. Way cooler than whatever fluffy New Age Heaven Buffy went to.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Yes, I’m not sure what to make of the “whole new landscape” remark. If they had the money, I’d be guessing that there was some sort of major Demon war going on or Sam ruling over hell on earth, but we know that they don’t have the cash for that, so I’m assuming that it’s something in the Brothers’ relationship that’s changed. It could be quite interesting if Lilith finally figures out that it’s Dean that’s Sam’s trigger and has made him forget that he had a brother, though that would mean that Sam wouldn’t be the one to rescue him.

My favourite scenario for the start of the season would be a dark screen with Dean screaming and Sam suddenly waking up.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

In the longer version of that interview, Kripke says that Dean will probably be in Hell for about six months of natural time. The only problem I have with that is that it opens up the possibility of seeing a lot more of CGI Hell -- and I do suspect that we will, because Kripke gave the "six months" answer when he was asked if there will be "scenes in Hell."

My favourite scenario for the start of the season would be a dark screen with Dean screaming and Sam suddenly waking up.

That would be gut-wrenching and subtle which probably means it won't happen.

And what's this business about a "new supernatural species?" If it's angels...I don't know about that. Unless they're as cool as Tilda Swinton in Constantine, I don't want no angels on this show.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

And what's this business about a "new supernatural species?" If it's angels...I don't know about that. Unless they're as cool as Tilda Swinton in Constantine, I don't want no angels on this show.

Personally I prefer the Tolkien route where evil intervenes and good stands apart to preserve free will. Plus, the notion of Angels sounds a bit too much like another attempt to crowbar in some charisma-free T&A.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've been racking my brain to try and think of what a "new supernatural species" could possibly be and angels are the only damn thing I'm coming up with unless aliens are landing. With all the emphasis on demons it was only a matter of time before their celestial opposites made an appearance.

I've decided that this season will either be heart-stoppingly awesome or mind-numbingly stupid. There shall be no middle ground. Good thing Ackles keeps gettin' prettier.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

ETA: I personally think it would be a real kick in the pants if Dean ran into Mom in Hell.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Well, Mary didn't get the glowy light thing when she left so it's more than possible that she's downstairs somewhere...

[ladymirth.livejournal.com]

I agree. It just gets repetitive, after a while. And compared to Sam's, Dean's character has stayed so static. Where is the character evoloution, damnit?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this just this morning and I do think Dean has changed, but his change was a lot more subtle. Sam had a longer way to go -- when we first meet him, he's a college student. He's had to come all the way from that to relearning the hunting business to discovering that he just might be the Antichrist (or something like it).

Dean, on the other hand, didn't have that much of a journey to make and a lot of his change was internal. His life didn't change very much when Sam rejoined him on the road. I saw the biggest shift in Dean's character between Seasons One and Two. Season One Dean was more lighthearted, more able to take things in stride and laugh them off. After his father died (and he was burdened with John's secret about Sam), Dean seemed to lose a lot of that spirit. I don't think Season One Dean would have been so quick to sell his soul, but by the end of Season Two Dean seemed to have become so emotionally exhausted that giving himself up was almost inevitable.