It's all about the sex. Except when it isn't!

[oselle]

As I trawl through the SPN fandom I've begun to notice that there are an awful lot of J2 stories out there. This observation is based on a very cursory perusal but it seems like I'm seeing far more stories labeled as J2 than Sam/Dean and certainly more than SPN gen or het. And the J2 stories are of course slash and most are NC-17 -- I don't think I've ever seen any gen or het stories about Jensen and Jared. I'm sure they're out there but they must represent a very small percentage of Supernatural-based RP fics.

I recently read some meta about the surge in J2 RPS and a number of thinky comments on that meta and I was struck by something that has occurred to me before -- no one ever comes flat out and mentions the main attraction of these stories, i.e. it's arousing to read about these pretty guys fucking.

What takes RPS up a notch is that you're not just reading about two random pretty guys fucking, you're reading about pretty guys that you "know" or at least have some existing perception of. Even if the author takes the guys off on some wild AU I don't think anyone reads a J2 RPS without bringing some of their own perception of Jensen and Jared to the story. So, as with any fanfiction, you're already invested in the characters and that makes the sex that much more exciting. Only once again, when people get thinky about RPS they don't mention the sex or they mention it very obliquely.

I've seen this not just in meta but in comments to RPS which are always along the lines of how powerful the story was or what great characterization etc. But are people really reading explicit slash about Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki for the powerful storytelling and strong characterization? I mean sure, it's great if it's there but isn't it really...all about the sex? I'm not being snarky here, I mean it. Isn't that why people read it? Take your favorite NC-17 RPS and strip out all the sex. Heck, go ahead and strip out all the PG-13 cuddling and canoodling too. Would what's left be enough to hold your interest?

What fascinates me is that no one ever says it and I wonder if that's because, well duh, Oselle, of course it's about the sex, or because we're all just too polite to bring it up. I'd say that the writers and readers of J2 RPS are almost entirely women -- is it hard-wired into us not to express a sexual reponse, even to the most intensely pornographic fiction, stories that are clearly meant to be arousing? Are we just too...ladylike to come out and admit that someone's story turned us on and gave us hours of pleasure with ourselves?

Or maybe it would somehow seem insulting to the author to bring that up, make it sound as if the sex was the best part of the story. But why? If someone writes a 50,000-word RPS and a good 25,000 of those words are explicit descriptions of sexual intercourse, then the sex should damn well better be the best part of the story, shouldn't it?

It wasn't until I discovered slash that I started pondering female sexuality, and reading other women's reactions to slash, fictional and real-person, really makes me wonder about how we feel about sex. On the one hand I think it's pretty cool that we tend to express an intellectual and at times downright eloquent reaction to this stuff but on the other hand it's kind of wild that no one ever seems to say that she loves reading about Jensen and Jared fucking because it gets her off.

Of course what makes slash so distinctively female is that there has to be a story. I think that's what really sets us apart from men. We don't consume pornography the way men do -- we don't spend billions of dollars on magazines filled with anonymous naked men or on movies that show random guys fucking. But we do read reams of pornographic fiction about men that we know, or at least feel like we know to some extent. So maybe it's not all about the sex, but rather about the stories.

But wait -- if women just loved great stories about sex then why isn't there a huge selection of published M/M erotic fiction specifically geared towards women? Is it because no one really understands women enough to understand there's a market for this? Or is it because there really isn't a market for it? Do we want to read stories about men having sex, however well written? Or do we want to read about men that we know having sex? Is it the sex that gets us...or is it that perception of knowledge, that pre-existing intimacy with these characters that makes the sex arousing?

Holy shit, I think I just answered my own question. We don't talk about the sex because it's not about the sex! Or rather it is about the sex but only under certain conditions and between certain people! Or...something like that.

Shit, I thought I was going somewhere with this.

Comments

[the0neru.livejournal.com]

Take your favorite NC-17 RPS and strip out all the sex. Heck, go ahead and strip out all the PG-13 cuddling and canoodling too. Would what's left be enough to hold your interest? - oddly (i think) enough, most of the stories i've bookmarked or printed out to keep have been ones where i liked the story, and the sex was just a plus. sure, some of them are pure pwp, kept solely for the hotness factor, but nine times out of ten i won't bother reccing or bookmarking fic unless the story is worth it on its own.

that said, though - add in your later question:Do we want to read stories about men having sex, however well written? Or do we want to read about men that we know having sex? - i'd tend to say this is another facet of the whole female emotional-component-of-intimacy thing. you could take any of the J2 fics that get me all hot and bothered and replace the characters with random people, or those from a fandom i don't follow, and i don't think the exact same fic would do anything for me, even if the storyline or the writing itself was the reason i loved the piece in the first place.

all of which is just to say, really, that i agree with you. :D

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I watched a snippet of very explicit gay porn once and while both of the guys were very pretty and it was obviously kind of exciting, I never got the buzz off it that I get off of great slash because...you know, who are these guys? And why should I care that they're blowing each other? When you "know" the characters you can tie that sex into their whole history and that's what makes it interesting. I think.

That's why I asked if there really was a market for this sort of thing. I don't think that women want to read m/m erotica the way that men get off on "lesbian" porn. We don't care about two random guys. We care about guys we know. The sex is hot but the backstory's got to be there too -- whether or not that backstory is in the actual fic or not. What matters is that we know it's there.

[eken95.livejournal.com]

I struggle with the whole J2 thing, not just the hot sex but the writing about real people thing, I find it really intrusive and just downright rude. But anyway. I don't know why slash is so erotic but it is. I think you are right that it is linked to an emotional intimacy which we women seem to want. I think you are also right about people feeling they know the actors/characters, maybe that's why some people feel it's ok to write about two male actors who could conceivably be gay and have hot sex all over the place but feel a bit off about writing incesty sex between the two brothers.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

maybe that's why some people feel it's ok to write about two male actors who could conceivably be gay and have hot sex all over the place but feel a bit off about writing incesty sex between the two brothers.

You bring up an interesting point that I hadn't considered -- that the proliferation of J2 is due to people really wanting to ship these two but being squicked out by the incest angle. I've read both Sam/Dean and J2 and there are very few circumstances in which I can buy into the Sam/Dean. I really, really have to suspend my disbelief to accept that brothers who grew up together (with one of them in a near-parenting role) could suddenly become lovers. I actually find the J2 scenario more plausible.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I remember once reading this rpg that was slash (fictional) and I totally got the feeling that one group of characters was written by a man and the other by a woman or women. Because they both had sex scenes at the same time and the difference was so cliche. The man version was very technical and focused on body parts. The female one was so emotional there were times where you couldn't be sure what, physically, the two were actually doing.

And it does seem like it's better if you have an emotional connection to the people first, so you have your own idea of the emotions going on in them or between them, and then you can bring those emotions into the sex. Of course an author can do that with original characters within a story, but if you already have a connection due to real life or somebody else's story it's that much easier and you're already bringing that much more to the table.

Heh. I have to say this is obviously not Potterfandom. Gushing about the hotness of the sex is very routine there! (And it's probably one of the perviest fandoms as well...)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

if you already have a connection due to real life or somebody else's story it's that much easier and you're already bringing that much more to the table.

Yeah, and if you happen to be in a fandom with lots of hot pictures of these guys exhibiting really intimate body language with each other it's easier than ever to ship them!

I am so, so glad I was never interested enough in the Potter books to get into the fandom. Man, that just sounds like a three-ring circus!

[shilohmm.livejournal.com]

Is it because no one really understands women enough to understand there's a market for this? Or is it because there really isn't a market for it?

I think there is a market for it but no one knows how to market it, if you see what I mean. I think women do prefer sex stories about people, about individuals, at least when it comes to consuming stuff for the sexual aspects, and there is a market for scenes of men and women having sex where the sex is definitely the focus - erotica - but it's kind of a subset of romance and so that may be why the publishers have never though to connect slash sort of stuff in there. (There is at least one romance novel with a lesbian relationship, though - Pembroke Park, by Michelle Martin.)

I also suspect it's less about what women are willing to read and more about what publishers are willing to publish. Erotica with straight couples is one thing; slash is quite another. Even if someone could figure out how to market it, there are a lot of people involved with putting out an legit novel (legit as opposed to fanfic), and if someone proposed it it's likely to be vetoed somewhere along the line. I suspect that, if slash ever hits the market, the early publishers, at least, will be smaller houses - that was the case even with the romantic erotica authors like Robin Schone, IIRC. Harlequin now has the Blaze line and there've long been authors like Bertrice Small whose novels look to be pretty standard romances but are definitely hotter than average, but what makes Schone different is that she sells her erotica As erotica.

Some of Bertrice Small's stuff, in contrast, feels like a historical novel and a book of erotica oddly interentwined - I think for a long time readers needed the "Excuse" of the historical stuff to justify their reading. Which is not the same thing as having a powerful story and compelling characters - I think all erotica needs that, but now some stories are still sex-oriented pretty much beginning to end where the characters are generally revealed through the sex rather than seeing much of them outside the sex scenes, and where the sex carries that resonance of this person in this situation rather than being generic sex.

One of the advantages of slash and other fanfic is that the characters are already established, so if you want to get straight to the sex, you can. The challenge with creating a market for that sort of thing is that few authors can create the characterization necessary while heavily focuson the sex. I think there is a market for stories that primarily appeal to women's sexuality, but unlike plain ol' porn, those stories must be skillfully written, because women are less likely to be excited with "insert tab B into slot A" stuff. There are women who're into that, but most women need more resonance to their sex scenes, and that requires more skill than sex scenes most guys appreciate. (There are also guys who aren't much for porn but like erotica, because they prefer that resonance as well, but they aren't likely to run across the kind of stuff they like because it's generally coded female.)

Interesting that people are not willing to talk about the arousing aspect of RPS, although I think I agree with whoever said that may be more true of that particular fandom than as a general thing. The idea that people skirt around the arousal factor isn't the impression I've picked up, anyhow, but I'm not big on RPF as a rule so maybe it's more common than I think.

Sheryl

[mangacat201.livejournal.com]

First:
MWEHAWEHEWHEWAHEWHEWAHEWAHEWAHEWAHEWHEWAHEWHEWAHAWEHEWAHAWEHEWA
I had to laugh so much when reading that, it was adorably brilliant!!!!!
Second:
I whole-heartedly agree to the female-emotional-connection thing. We need a setting for the sex that we can refer to it as intimacy with a deeper meaning than just fucking to get off (sure, that can be gratifying too, but all in all, I need a spark of romance even if it's somewhere waaaaaaay down below)
As for talking about RPS and sex in meta or comments... I really can only speak for myself here, but for me it's about privacy.
Not mine, but the boys'.
If you write or read a sex scene in RPF, you depict living breathing people in a moment of intimacy that normally nobody wants and has a public audience for, you decribe them in a way that nobody wants to have splashed all over for everyone to read (porno actors not withstanding, but even they are in a character that's different from their private persona)
So, while I'm perfectly aware that those stories are (probably) not true and one might be imagining them as acting out characters like in a show, it's still different. I'm not adverse to reading smut (though I stay clear of RPS PWP because, that's just the point) on the contrary and I enjoy good sex scenes more than unoriginal ones, and I enjoy them even more in good stories then in shaky plots, but I feel like bragging all about it (even if to congratulate an author) would be taking that last shred of personal space and private integrity from the image of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki in my head even if it's only an imperfect reflection. So... I just don't take it as far as this last step.
My personal feelings about the matter.
You may include that as research in that paper on female psychology you're going to write *g*
Cat