SPN 4:14 Revisited

[oselle]

I wanted to write a follow-up to last night's episode regarding Sam. Some of this is going to be reworked from things I've said elsewhere in comments so it might be repetitive to a few of you but not all of you have had the privilege of basking in my wisdom, so here goes.

The climax of last night's episode was the confrontation between Dean and Sam during which, under the siren's spell, they both blurted out what we have to assume is the truth -- considering that Dean clearly spoke the truth (that Sam's been lying to him and keeping things from him) I don't think that even the most devoted Samgirl could say that Sam's accusations were merely an unfortunate side effect of the spell.

What Sam said pretty much confirmed what I (and some of you) have suspected has been on Sam's mind all season -- that he's not happy about having Dean back. No, he didn't say that exactly, but what he did say essentially meant the same thing: you're weak, you suck at your job, you're a self-pitying shit and (most importantly) you're holding me back. These are not the sort of things you say to someone you want in your life. So let's establish right now that, at the present, Sam thinks he'd be better off without Dean.

Unlike some of you (and Dean) I don't think this is a "new" Sam at all. I actually think this is the old Sam -- the Sam of Stanford, the Sam we glimpsed in portions of Season One, in episodes like the Pilot, "Asylum" and "Salvation." I'm going to call him Original Sam.

Here's what we know about Original Sam: he was ambitious and was pursuing a career that carried the potential for both wealth and prestige and, quite possibly, for power (a law degree is very often a pathway to political office). He wanted to build a life that had nothing to do with his father or brother and, in fact, had gone two years without communicating with either one of them. And, (going by things he said in "Salvation") he saw his resumption of hunting (and his partnership with Dean) as a necessary but unfortunate situation that would end once the Yellow-Eyed Demon had been killed.

His father's death and Dean's near-death at the beginning of Season Two were the genesis of New Sam. New Sam was joined at the hip with Dean and was an equal partner with him. New Sam essentially gave up on any vision of that law degree and white-picket-fence life and devoted himself to hunting...and to Dean. This is the Sam who I think is closest to our fannish hearts, the one who turns up in countless fanfics, the one who nearly lost his mind with grief in "Mystery Spot" and who wept over Dean's body at the end of "No Rest for the Wicked." This is the Sam who would have done anything, anything to get Dean out of hell.

I hate to tell you this, but New Sam has left the building. What we're dealing with now is Original Sam...with a twist. Because Original Sam has not only realized that he has supernatural powers but also that those powers can take him far beyond where any Stanford law degree could have taken him. And he likes that. It appeals to him, it appeals to the pride and ambition that have always been part of his character. This is nothing new at all. This is Original Sam hopped up on his own psychic powers and whatever flattery Ruby's been feeding him and it's gone to his head so much that he can stand there and say the most appalling (and untrue) things to the brother who sacrificed both his life and his soul, and gave himself up to horrific torment, so that Sam could live.

This is the Sam who's back to wanting Dean out of his life. He simply doesn't need Dean at all. He's got his powers, he's got Ruby to mentor him and he's got a mission -- and let me tell you something, that mission is not revenge against Lilith. He may think that it is, but it's not. Seriously, why would he need to exact vengeance against her? For killing and torturing Dean? He stopped feeling bad about Dean's death a month after it happened and then he moved on. And as for Dean's suffering in hell at Lilith's command? Well, Dean's brought that up (at Sam's needling insistence, btw) all of two times since he returned and Sam seems to consider this "whining" self-pity so it's clear he thinks Dean should just get over it already. No, Sam isn't really looking for vengeance.

What I think Sam's really after (whether he realizes it yet or not) is ascendance over Lilith. He wants to kill her because he wants to depose her and, presumably, assume the power that she has. This is exactly what Ruby is offering him and I have to repeat that this side of Sam's character is nothing new. This is who he has always been.

Assuming I'm right and this is the direction the show is taking, I don't have a problem with it. I think it's one hell of an intriguing storyline and I applaud them for taking the enormous risk of making one of their major characters so complex and unlikable. Much as I love fanfic and would love to have seen Sam rescuing Dean and devotedly taking care of him, I don't think the show could have gotten too much mileage out of that. Shmoop yes, mileage no.

However...I'm not really sure this is what the show is doing or at least, not sure they know they're doing it. The alienation between the brothers that has been so remarkable to all of us went glaringly unnoticed by all of the characters until last night's episode. Sam's apathy towards Dean and attachment to Ruby have been presented to us not only without apology but as if they were something positive -- Sam "coming into his own" under Ruby's benevolent tutelage. Since the season premiere, Ruby has been depicted as caring, affectionate, passionate and self-sacrificing -- wholly invested in helping Sam realize his true potential. Meanwhile Dean has been depicted as...inconvenient ("Lazarus Rising"), judgmental ("Metamorphosis"), laughable ("Yellow Fever"), deserving of humiliation ("After School Special") and wallowing in self-pity (the consecutive and nearly identical endings of "Heaven and Hell" and "Family Remains").

On top of all that is Dean's connection to the angels, who (along with God and all of heaven) have been drawn so negatively, while Ruby has grown positively saint-like in comparison. We've come down from the season-premiere high of the "important work" that the angels wanted Dean to do, to Dean being just a foot soldier drafted into the service of narrow-minded bullies -- essentially, the same Dean that Sam rejected years ago when he went to Stanford, the "blunt instrument" who now serves God (or at least, the angels) instead of John Winchester.

I admit I'm a Deangirl and I'm protective of his character and I also admit that the show has never done a good job of "selling" me on Sam. I have always found Sam to be a little selfish and vain and I've never, ever really trusted him. I feel like Dean's an open book whereas Sam...I've always looked at Sam "through a glass darkly." And I don't think that this has been intentional on the part of the creator and the writers. I think they either like Sam this way or simply do not see these flaws in his character.

Kripke supposedly said ages ago that he really envisioned Supernatural as Sam's story -- now, there's no reason why a leading character can't be equivocal and complicated and even downright horrible but I've always believed that Kripke sees Sam as the show's primary protagonist no matter what. He can do no wrong. And I worry that the writers have maintained this blind spot about Sam, and what they've done with Sam, and think they're building him up into a hero when they are, in fact, turning him into a truly awful creature -- selfish, proud, power-hungry and downright hateful to the one person in the world who needs him, who genuinely loves him, and to whom he owes his very life.

Let me reiterate -- if the writers are doing this in full awareness with the payoff of some incredible twist at the end of the season (like ghyste's "Dean's still in hell" speculation), then bravo. Bravo for taking risks and pushing the show out of its comfort zone and keeping us on the edge of our seats while breaking our hearts.

But...if they play this straight, if they continue to position Ruby as a misunderstood demon-with-a-heart-of-gold, Dean as God's hapless puppet, subconsciously wanting to suppress the potential greatness of his more intelligent and ambitious little brother because of his own prejudiced fears, and Sam as somehow justified in everything he's done and every way he's acted this season? Well, they ain't got the chops to sell it and even if they did, I still wouldn't buy it.

Comments

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

if the writers are doing this in full awareness with the payoff of some incredible twist at the end of the season..., then bravo.

You summed up very well the fears that I hadn't even really articulated to myself until now. This season is like being a passenger on a bus going tremendously fast, when you can't see or hear the driver. As long as the driver is sober, sound in body and mind, and experienced at operating very large and very cumbersome vehicles at speed, you'll be okay. If he is not any of these things, chances are you won't be.

Hell of it is, back there in the back of the bus, you can't tell. So you just gotta sit tight and hope like hell it's the former and not the latter.

I want to believe we've got a damn fine driver or six at the wheel. But if we're supposed to believe that this Sam is BETTER, if we're supposed to believe that Ruby is GOOD for him, if we're supposed to believe -- then we're going to drive right off that cliff.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

There are a few things making me worry that a bunch of drunks are driving this thing...

First of all there's the writers (including Kripke) who don't have the best track record with characterization. I think they've had a long-standing bias towards Sam as the "better" brother and have at times ill-advisedly clung to the original conception of Dean as a thick-headed doofus. I'm trying not to think about Bela, because I'm telling myself that if Kripke had really been as enamored of her as he said he was, she'd still be on the show. Nevertheless the whole Bela thing made me question their judgment -- they sure seemed to have a bad case of puppy-love with Bela (at least at the beginning of S3) and they seem just as infatuated with Ruby.

So infatuated that they've gone through quite a bit of trouble to rehab Ruby's image and re-purpose her a heroine. As ghyste points out below, if this is at all on the up-and-up then it changes the whole show and I don't know if they realize that. If Ruby is not evil then she's right about Sam's powers being capable of doing great good, in which case Sam's right to side with her instead of Dean, and Dean's a narrow-minded idiot who's not just holding Sam back but also pushing the whole world to the brink of ruin. I can't stress strongly enough that keeping Ruby as a good character is a huge problem because it boxes them into a really shitty corner. Either all three of them will have to become the old "unlikely allies" or, as ghyste said below, we'll wind up with SuperSam and St. Ruby trying to save the world on their own while defending themselves from a veritable army of "racist" angels...and Dean.

The final, and most disturbing thing, is that no one within the show seems to question certain bizarre goings-on, even when the whole audience is sitting there wondering what the fuck is happening. We've all picked up on Sam's distance from and apathy towards Dean but...Bobby hasn't? He hasn't once pulled Sam aside and said, "Hey, kid, what the hell is up with you? Aren't you happy to have him back?"

Even worse, Bobby at times has seemed to be on the same page as Sam. In "Yellow Fever" he was just as cavalier about Dean's illness and impending death as Sam was, for no explicable reason. We can talk all we want about why Sam might not want Dean back in his life but what's up with Bobby? He's standing there showing off his Japanese and joking around with Sam about Dean having two hours to live and gee, I don't know if this is gonna work har-har? WTF?? That's just abysmal writing and if shit like that is making it into the show then it points to a staggering cluelessness on the creative team's part. If they're clueless about that, what else are they missing?

No one has questioned Ruby's extreme behavior makeover either...or how she managed to get out of Hell a mere month after betraying Lilith and supposedly getting sent "far, far away." How could anyone within the show not wonder about this? Okay, let's imagine for the moment that Sam's under some sort of spell or drunk on his own powers or whatever...what's wrong with Dean? He hasn't batted an eye over Ruby's reappearance or shiny new personality and he took a very short time to develop a certain respect (albeit grudging) of Ruby's awesomeness. What? WHAT!? It's shit like this that makes me feel like the wheels have come off this thing already!

Only eight episodes left. The cliff is looming.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

Oww, Dean.

*cries*

I will be killed by Samgirls anywhere but I want this to be about Dean. Things are going to turn over for him, and him alone.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't see how things can turn over for Dean without Sam. No matter what Sam does, Dean will never truly give up on him or leave him for good. I'm sure of that.

Re: yeah, i'm leaning towards this is hell too

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I'm sure they'll survive but in what condition? And what sort of possible shark-jumpage might the show have to endure?

[pensive]

THIS.

Just, yeah, basically all of this.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yep.

[muffaletta.livejournal.com]

Yup, pretty much WORD to all you said. I've also had a hard time (since the Pilot actually) bonding with Sam's character. I've tried, Lord knows. And after seeing Sam grieve in "Mystery Spot" and "No Rest", I was willing to let bygones be bygones. But man, last night...At this point, the only Sam I like is the one in fanfic.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I think that the writers have done such a haphazard job with Sam's characer that I know a great deal of my own personal Sam has been shaped by fanfic. I'm trying to finish up my own long fic now and Sam's finally come into the story and he's very much based on my own imaginings and Fanon Sam. I'd have absolutely no place in there for the person that Canon Sam has become. I wouldn't even know what to do with him...and I kind of worry that the show eventually isn't going to know what to do with him, either.

[muffaletta.livejournal.com]

I'm also interested in seeing how the show will handle Sam and I just hope the writers are brave enough to continue on in the course "Sex" started. I have absolutely no interest in seeing a whitewashed Sam who admits, golly gee, Dean, I'm sorry I said those things but you know, you were a major prick so you kind of deserved it (or a Dean, who gratefully grovels after Sam's "apology" because golly gee, he was a prick to his awesome little brother so yeah, he did kind of deserve it. Or even worse, Dean forgiving and forgetting because he's so damn lucky to be related to someone as wonderful as Sam. I've already seen fanfic out there that are making Dean out as the bad guy in "Sex" because he was so mean to his widdle brother and it's just pissing me off.) If nothing changes, if Sam stays the same as before, then I can't change my negative opinion of him. But if he's shown at his worst but can grow past it, yeah, that would be terrific character development.

I'd love to see a flawed Sam, who finally takes responsibility, sees the damage HE did and then, being honest with himself, decides whether or not he wants Dean in his life and if so, doing whatever is needed. As I see it, just renouncing his powers at some point won't be enough to redeem Sam's character-he has to face those dark, unlikeable places inside himself and change. To me, that's the more interesting journey anyways, not this antichrist crap.

[catsbycat.livejournal.com]

Yes!! And wow! Very well said and very interesting because what you say here makes perfect sense. But I also think it's interesting that while we essentially love 'em to bits for giving us SPN, few us who perhaps think this way have the confidence in the creators of Show to actually see what they've created here. Which is something delicious and twisty and dark. I really want to say that they do, but yeah. One can't help that small, nagging doubt that they won't have the cajones to go there.

There is however a part of me that does think they know what they're doing with Sam, simply because since the first hug was over in Lazarus Rising, I've felt there was something off with Sam. That's 14 episodes worth - can't be a coincidence, right? And what Sam said to Dean in this episode was unimaginably cruel. In a few cutting seconds he reduced to nothing everything that Dean holds dear and sacred - hunting (I'm better than you), being with Sam (you're holding me back), the desire to help and save people (torturing souls in hell, boo hoo). He also accused Dean of being a coward. As you said, not quite the things you would expect from the brother you gave EVERYTHING up for.

Dean just wants his Sammy back; Sam wants Dean to go away. *sniff* Oh boys :(

Just to keep me sane, I'm gonna believe for now, for as long as I can, that the writers are going somewhere with Sam, and that there is going to be an amazing payoff. The only thing that would truly destroy me is they kill either of the boys - for good.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've felt there was something off with Sam.

EVERYBODY has felt that way and I'm sure it's not a coincidence but when the hell is someone within the show going to bring it up? I'm waiting for Bobby at least to ask Sam what the hell is wrong with him. Even Dean...he called Sam out on lying to him but I'm waiting for Dean to walk out on Sam altogether. Not just because Sam's using his powers and sneaking around with Ruby behind his back but because, "you know what, Sam? You don't need me, and you don't even want me around so, sayonara." What's Sam gonna say? "Yeah Dean, I really do want you around even though you're a lousy hunter and a whiny coward who's holding me back from my glorious destiny?" I mean, how much abuse does Dean have to take? Right now I suspect he doesn't want to leave Sam because he feels like he still has to look out for him but he HAS to know that Sam isn't happy about having him back and he HAS to have known it, on some level, long before the siren-spell showdown.

pardon my verbosity...

[cofax7]

Oh, that's a neat theory. I'm not sure I'd follow you all the way to the end with it, but there's definitely a lot of support for it.

I think I would disagree only on a few points:

1. I don't think Sam wants to supplant Lilith. Or, to be more accurate, I don't think that's a conscious goal. He's a good liar, but he's also good at lying to himself, about what he wants and how his needs outweigh those of other people. I suspect Ruby's telling him things he wants to hear but it's all phrased in ways that make it palatable to New Sam. Because honestly, if he were quite so consciously power-hungry, I think it would have come out in the argument last night.

2. Same kind of goes for what he thinks about Dean. I suspect that the "you're holding me back" line is the high spot on a range of disgruntled feelings, rather than a conscious and constant choice. Sometimes, yeah, Dean does hold him back--and sometimes that's on purpose. Dean is interfering with his power-building, even without meaning to, because somewhere along the line they swapped positions. Now Dean is the voice of moral certainty and Sam is the ends-justify-the-means guy. So just having Dean around makes Sam uncomfortable, makes him justify his choices. It would be easier if he weren't there.

All that said, I think the showrunners long since lost hold of Sam's characterization. They fell in love with JA as Dean and gave him a lot more to do, and poor JP (who has improved enormously since season 1) hasn't gotten the same treatment. So for that at least, I'm grateful for the last two or three episodes, which have given us a much better look at what's going on with Sam.

But I don't think the showrunners know what they've done here. They expect us to have their understanding that these are the heroes; hell, Sera Gamble had to argue the point that Sam sleeping with Ruby was rape. They didn't see it! Because the Winchesters are heroes.

So on the one hand, I agree that Sam's going somewhere really dark and interesting--I just don't think the show understands quite how dark they're implying it is.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[agentotter.livejournal.com]

Yes. That. You are so full of smartness.

I always have a hard time figuring out whether a show's writers are trying to create some kind of evolution in a character or whether their writing is just uneven, and Sam is one of those characters that seems to have several personalities. (Like even when we're in a New Sam era, sometimes there'll be the odd episode where he's very Old Sam.)

Also, Sera Gamble had to argue with them on the rape issue? I shouldn't be surprised, and yet I am. I actually was looking forward to them dealing with that at some point (back before Ruby hijacked the coma body and I realized that was their way of dealing with it), because I was expecting them to hook up this season and figured at some point that somebody would point out that there's sort of a consent issue with the possessed.

And finally, I don't think Sam wants to supplant Lilith either. I think that is where Ruby's maneuvering him, but I don't think he gets that. Would definitely be interesting if that's how things end up, though.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[oselle.livejournal.com]

And finally, I don't think Sam wants to supplant Lilith either. I think that is where Ruby's maneuvering him, but I don't think he gets that.

I don't think he knows that that's what he wants, at least not yet. But I think by the end of the season that will either become something that he rejectes once and for all or embraces as his true "destiny."

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[cofax7]

Sera Gamble had to argue with them on the rape issue?

Yeah, apparently they just didn't see Sam sleeping with Ruby as rape of the possessed girl until Gamble pointed it out. And then had to argue the issue--they didn't understand that this was a problem if they were trying to keep Sam sympathetic. Which, WTF?

Knowing that, I have very little expectation that these guys have as good a handle on what they're doing as I would hope.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[agentotter.livejournal.com]

Oh, hell. Well, I guess that answers my question of whether they're very clever or very not. What part exactly about sleeping with a coma victim isn't rape? I mean, I'm not really sure which is more cruel, taking some other person away from their daily life, or taking a coma patient away from a death which she might've been waiting on for years. Just because she's in a coma doesn't mean she's not alive in there.

Also, I think I might <3 Sera Gamble now. I see her job is even harder than I thought, because she's working with a bunch of idiots. God help us all.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[cofax7]

Actually, the coma victim thing *fixed* the problem. When we didn't know the backstory, sleeping with Ruby looked like rape. But in "I Know What You Did Last Summer" they showed Sam challenge Ruby on the possession. She went away, found a girl who was in a coma, waited until she died, and then possessed her. No soul in there with her, ergo no rape.

But what bugs is that I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have gone there with that unless Gamble pointed it out: they wouldn't have bothered to jump through that hoop.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[agentotter.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, I see. I didn't remember that the body was actually dead when Ruby possessed her. So I guess Sam's just a necrophiliac, then. Eewwwwww.

And yeah, you're completely right, they wouldn't have bothered if Gamble hadn't made it an issue, which is what I was betting on when I speculated that Sam would sleep with Ruby and that when somebody pointed out that was rape, that Sam would then have to deal with that. Thank God for Gamble, then, because obviously otherwise I'd have gotten the traumatic event I expected without even the dramatic blow-back.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[oselle.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I suspect that not realizing that sleeping with a possessed person is rape is less an issue of the writers not thinking things through and more an issue of all the other writers/producers on the show being men. I don't think it's an accident that the person who pointed this out to them is the only full-time woman on the staff. I'll bet she had to explain it to them reeeeeal slowly too:

Gamble: But it's rape because it's non-consensual.

Kripke & Co: Whaddaya mean? Ruby consented!

Gamble: Yeah, but she's not the only person in that body.

Kripke & Co: But Ruby liked it!

Gamble: Yeah but....sigh.

Re: pardon my verbosity...

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sam wants to supplant Lilith. Or, to be more accurate, I don't think that's a conscious goal.

Right, that's why I said "whether he realizes it or not." But frankly, I think he is starting to realize it. In "Wishful Thinking," when Sam wished for Lilith's death, he expressed it with the sort of venomous relish that you reserve for an intimate enemy -- and yet just a few months ago, he didn't even know she existed. She had nothing to do with his mother or father's death or with his own recruitment as one of Azazel's kids, and while she did kill Dean and consign him to Hell, Sam seems so ambivalent about Dean that it's unlikely he's after Lilith to avenge that. So where's the passion coming from? He's got to be coming around to believe that he stands to gain something from killing Lilith, something very personal that he wants for himself.

They expect us to have their understanding that these are the heroes

Right, and that's especially true of Sam whom I think Kripke identifies with more than he identifies with Dean. So when Sam does something awful and selfish it's given a pass and not brought up again because ultimately he's the hero of the show and everything will be okay just because of that.

[agentotter.livejournal.com]

Awesome analysis.

I've got hope in my heart that they're going to the complex place with this, but I've been disappointed before, so I'm holding onto my cynicism, too. ;) I generally haven't felt that I favor one brother much over the other -- I've always liked Dean a bit better, but I feel like the story's about both of them, so I enjoy the show most when it concentrates on their adventures together -- but I think you're also very right about Sam. He's always been conflicted about his life and his motivations have always been a world apart from John's (revenge) or Dean's (devotion). His brother and dad really are open books in a lot of ways but Sam's a whole different creature.

I think no matter what they do with Sam, though, they're not going to play Ruby straight. I really don't think they will. Because they've gone to such lengths to make Dean give her even a grudging amount of trust (and in turn to get us to give her a little trust, too), that the only effective way to play that out really dramatically is to have that trust prove to be unfounded. (Well, either that or have Dean's distrust get her killed to create more friction between the brothers or something, but I'm not seeing it.) She definitely has an agenda that she isn't being open about, and she's definitely playing Sam to her own ends. In "I Know What You Did Last Summer" she says, "You can't just fly in there reckless, Sam, we need you to take the bitch out." I don't think the "we" she's talking about is her and Sam, especially from the way she phrased it. She's working with some demon faction, and just because it isn't Lilith doesn't mean it isn't bad. (I kind of wonder whether Lucifer's going to need a body when all those seals get broken, and they're grooming Sam up for it or something.)

What I think would be really interesting, though I don't expect them to go there, is if Ruby's devotion to Sam really is genuine, whatever her other agendas. I'd like to see it turn out that she really truly is in love with him, but he is the monster she helped make him and he throws her away like she's nothing. I mean, he's basically been using her right back all this time, and I'm not convinced that he cares her for so much as he just needs her for his purposes at the moment. It'd be interesting to see the demon be the one feeling more in that relationship.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

She's working with some demon faction, and just because it isn't Lilith doesn't mean it isn't bad.

I agree and that's another thing I've been wondering about since S3 and that yet, strangely, no one in the show seems remotely curious about. We've only seen Ruby operating as a free agent but she HAS to be representing some faction and just because it's the faction that's rebelling against Lilith/Lucifer doesn't make it benevolent. I'll let a comedy like Reaper get away with the rehabilitated demons idea, but it doesn't really work on SPN, especially when they've given us no real reason to trust Ruby or whoever she works for.

I'd like to see it turn out that she really truly is in love with him, but he is the monster she helped make him and he throws her away like she's nothing.

I don't know about that because that would mean a completely unredeemable Sam. If Ruby turns out to be EVIL and he turns on her and uses the powers she helped him foster to destroy her it will be a good twist but if Ruby turns out to be good and genuinely loving and Sam destroys her it'll just wreck his character for good. He's already more or less turned his back on his own brother to attach himself to Ruby...if Ruby really is the heroine they're building her into and he betrays her as well? Where does he go from there?

[agentotter.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get why nobody's asking questions about what Ruby's stake in all this is. Her reasons for sticking so hard to Sam and putting so much work into recruiting him and training him are really weak, and for guys who are such con artists you'd think they'd be able to spot a con, especially one who's doing such a bad job of lying. We already know, because a number of demons have told us as much, that there's fighting among different demon factions to see who comes out on top. That Sam seems to just be blithely assuming that Ruby's a free agent is kind of silly.

I don't know about that because that would mean a completely unredeemable Sam. If Ruby turns out to be EVIL and he turns on her and uses the powers she helped him foster to destroy her it will be a good twist but if Ruby turns out to be good and genuinely loving and Sam destroys her it'll just wreck his character for good.

It could, yes. I feel like they're moving toward an ultimate brother against brother showdown that could go to a very dark place, though, and I think it's possible to take Sam to that brink and bring him back to his brother again. And I don't mean that if Ruby were to truly love Sam, that that would mean she's good... I kind of see her brand of loving him as wanting to bring him to his full potential, to make him everything she wants him to be, none of which is necessarily really in his best interests. But, you know, it could be that my brain has been infected by watching Devour that one time and now I see all roads leading to, "But you're the son of the devil and I'm just trying to show you how much I love you by making you evil!" ;)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Oh God, as much as I hate to say it Devour is actually a pretty good comparison. As is Jason Teague in Smallville...there's no doubt that his mother loved him but her love was utterly toxic and destructive. Sort of like watching too much of Jensen Ackles's filmography (just the ONE time on Devour? Reeeeally??)

That Sam seems to just be blithely assuming that Ruby's a free agent is kind of silly.

Sam, Dean, Bobby, Anna and everyone else. So much for never conning a con artist.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

As I’ve said elsewhere, Original Sam definitely showed that he had the capacity for the sort of behaviour we’re seeing now, but there’s definitely been a step change in the degree. Stanford Sam had no reason to believe that Dean was not happily off doing what he did best – following Daddy’s orders – and whatever dangers he was facing were no different from what he’d faced for years. Scarecrow Sam went after Dean just because he wasn’t answering his phone, and that only shortly after the events of “Asylum”. Season 4 Sam got over Dean’s death after a few weeks and a round of demon sex even though he knew what Dean must be going through, and in “Yellow Fever” he seemed unconcerned about Dean’s impending demise (and even went so far as to say that Dean deserved it for being a “dick”) despite the fact that he had no assurances that Dean would not go straight back on the rack.

The thing that muddies the water with the above is, of course, John’s death where Sam showed considerably less emotion than Dean. However, this may have been because the storyline was Dean’s. We also know that Dean didn’t do a Deal to get John back even though he could have done, so I guess it’s possible to theorise that neither of them really understood what going to Hell was like at the time or if John was even really there.

The indications are all that something (or someone) has happened to Sam to effect the change, but like you I don’t really trust that the writers have realised what they’re doing. As you point out, they hadn’t realised about the implications of Ruby sex until it was forcibly pointed out to them and they never did seem to understand why Bela wasn’t awesomely popular with the viewers. If they have done it deliberately, then I hope that it is an outside force at work because otherwise there’s really no coming back for Sam. Joss Whedon tried the same thing on Buffy and justified making most of the core characters thoroughly unlikeable as “giving the audience what they need, not what they want”. Apparently what this audience member needed was to lose interest and stop watching, and I’d hate that to happen with SPN.

As far as Ruby is concerned, I hope against hope that the relentless deification of the character is so we’ll be surprised to find out she’s really one of the bad guys, because otherwise they pretty much undermine everything that’s happened in the past couple of seasons. If omniscient Ruby is good then she’s right about the powers being benign. Sam should, therefore, have embraced them in Season 2, defeated Jake and the YED and established peace on earth. Or, if he was unable to realise it before Saint Ruby arrived, he should have learned how to use them in Season 3 and saved stupid Dean from the Pit. The powers being good also render a fifth season pointless since the only thing they could do is have poor misunderstood Sam and Ruby hunted down by racist Dean and the cold-hearted Angels. My hope is that both Ruby and the powers will turn out to be bad and that the monster she’s created will kill her, but at this point to realise I’m not sure if the writers appreciate what they will be doing to their own storyline and characters if it turns out she really is a little lost soul with a heart of gold.

PS: As I’ve said elsewhere, I completely agree with you about the “revenge” motive being unconvincing.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree that something has happened to Sam that has brought this selfishness and ambition to fruition but the seed of these things was in him all along. I do think Ruby has had a lot to do with cultivating it -- Sam's attempts to rescue Dean (I'm assuming there was more than the one that we actually saw) were half-hearted and ineffective but at least he was still trying. He pretty much gave up on all that and stopped grieving for Dean altogether when Ruby came into his life, to the extent that even the surety of Dean's suffering became unimportant. Even if we imagine that Ruby has some sort of demonic hold on him, it was Sam's innate flaws that gave her such an easy inroad. Can you possibly imagine Dean acting this way, regardless of who was influencing or manipulating him? Can you imagine Dean giving Sam up to Hell and essentially forgetting about him?

I hope against hope that the relentless deification of the character is so we’ll be surprised to find out she’s really one of the bad guys...My hope is that both Ruby and the powers will turn out to be bad and that the monster she’s created will kill her

Yeah, I hope so too but I keep thinking about how Angel Anna was awestruck by Ruby's goodness and how Ruby let herself be tortured by Alistair and how Uriel's revulsion towards her was portrayed as unjustified and hateful, and I just can't get past the idea that the writers really, really want Ruby to be good. They've worked so hard at proving it that they'd have to engage in some serious revisionism to erase all the evidence -- but they do have a tendency to just sweep their messes under the rug when they finally realize they've made one.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Can you possibly imagine Dean acting this way, regardless of who was influencing or manipulating him? Can you imagine Dean giving Sam up to Hell and essentially forgetting about him?

No I can't, but then Dean's weaknesses are very different to Sam's so both the way in and the results would have to be different if a malign force was trying to corrupt him.

I too think the evidence stacks up in favour of the writers wanting Ruby to be good, but if she is then what is the point of her? Other than getting her kit off, that is.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

If she's good she'll ultimately have to sacrifice herself for Sam. That'll get her out of the way while leaving her hagiography intact.

[kjfri.livejournal.com]

Finally had the chance to watch the epi (no thanks to you CW network) and to all you say - I say a hearty - HEAR! HEAR!

I admit I'm a Dean girl, always have been, and show hasn't made me truly dislike Sam - yet. But I am loving everyone's speculation on what's comin' down the pike for the boys. (Personally, I hope they don't sell a repackaged Cane&Able story to us.) And in another post I agreed with a statement by riverbella where she was clinging to the hope that in the end, it will be Dean's love for Sam that redeems him - and I kinda like that warm thought - so I'm going to cling to that, too.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I am on board with that too and I'm trying to think about the other "psychic" kids and what sorts of family relations they had and I'm wondering if Dean might eventually be the linchpin of this whole thing.

[bigmamag.livejournal.com]

Dude, I was linked here and this is my thoughts exactly on Sam! I loved the New Sam vs. Old Sam, and I think you're right on the money with the whole thing. I liked both Old and New Sam, but not THIS particular Old Sam. It's like they took Old Sam, who yes, wanted his own life and was ambitious and all that, but left out where you pitied and understood why he wanted it. If I had the chance to ask Kripke a question, I'd ask him if that 'Sam's story' viewpoint has changed. Hey, it might have, since they planned for Dean to be the comic relief only. Maybe Dean's character just kind of took a life of it's own, because now it almost seems like it's Dean's story.