SPN 4:21

[oselle]

I don't feel like I have enough information to comment on last night's episode. It just seemed to pile on a lot of questions and I'm hoping that we'll get at least a little enlightenmnet about some of them next week. It was a good episode and I really liked it but at the same time I almost felt like it was similar to "On The Head of a Pin" in that it created a catastrophic situation that I'm not fully confident will be well resolved. With that said, just a few observations.

Ruby
I don't see any way that Ruby can not be evil and if the show tries to prove that she's good, or at least paint her in shades of gray after what's happened to Sam...the show can kiss my ass. I almost laughed out loud at what I assume was her feigned regret over Sam and Dean's rift -- honey, if you gave a shit about that, you'd have been out of the picture a long time ago.

Last night's episode really made me miss Katie Cassidy and especially the old version of Ruby. I sure as hell can't picture KC/old Ruby engaging in cozy pillow-talk with Sam the way Ruby 2.0 did last night and Genevieve Cortese's dopey, cow-eyed performance is baffling me. Is she in love with Sam? Manipulating him? In love with him and manipulating him?

I wish they'd never made Sam & Ruby into a sexual relationship and please please don't anyone try and tell me that it isn't, that they only had sex "that one time" while Dean was still in hell. They cut from a shot of Sam lustily drinking Ruby's blood to the two of them dreamily lazing under the covers with half their clothes off -- the only thing missing were the post-coital cigarettes. Sam-as-addict would be bad enough but he's also getting led around by his cock and he's let this infatuation with demon-girl destroy his bond with his brother which makes him look like the biggest asshole ever. Couldn't they have had Sam seduced by power and demon-blood without having him literally seduced as well? I've come to believe that Sera Gamble really does have a crush on Jared and I wish she'd just work it out in fanfic like the rest of us. Sheesh.

Sam
I don't know what to make of Sam's withdrawal hallucinations but it was kind of interesting that he imagined his mother (whom he never even knew) showing up to tell him how wonderful he was and how weak Dean was -- something I think Sam really wants to believe. He does not want to admit that Dean has any role to play in stopping the apocalypse and he sure as hell doesn't want to admit that Dean is right -- if this really is him and not a demon-addled shadow of himself, then Sam has become a monster. Has, in fact, not become stronger, but has completely caved in to what Azazel did to him and caved in willingly, almost enthusiastically, with no sign of a struggle.

I wrote a post about Sam a few months ago in which I claimed that this hideous Sam is more or less the dark fulfillment of the person he's always been. While some new information has come out since I wrote that post, the basic premise still stands. It isn't just demon blood or Ruby's sexual spell that got Sam to this point...it's Sam. Sam's flaws. He likes this thing that he's become, he thinks he's tough and strong and meant for greatness and wow...wow does he hate Dean. I mean he hates him. It's been hinted at throughout the series that the love between them isn't exactly a two-way street but trying to choke someone to death after they're already down for the count? That's hate. That's pure, venomous hate, and hate that deep is not a new thing, it's not coming from a recent influx of demon-blood. Sam hates Dean.

Dean
Nothing was more depressing than seeing Dean left there on the floor at the end of the episode, completely destroyed (again). Is there anything left to do to this guy? Seriously. What's left? And yet you know that he's going to get up and go after Sam. And not just to stop the apocalypse but to save Sam even though at this point he hardly seems worth saving.

Castiel
I think that Castiel is still on Dean's side but can't show it. Those two angels who showed up to take Anna into custody didn't come out of nowhere -- I suspect Castiel's being tailed, kept in line. Castiel's in a tough spot. I think he does want to obey heaven but he also wants to help Dean -- so I think the wording of his pledge was no accident. He told Dean to swear to be as loyal to God as he was to his own father, and we all know that when it came to Sam, Dean was not loyal to his own father. I'm very, very interested to find out what Dean's pledge of alliegance to God and the angels will really mean.

(As a side note, I'm certain that if Dean had made that deal with a female angel, there would have been some mandatory spit-swapping involved. Just wanted to throw that out there for the edification of Misha Collins and anyone else who thinks there's no significant difference between the way male characters and female characters are portrayed on the show.)

Lilith
I have no idea anymore. Is she the last seal? Is it her death that will release Lucifer? If so, you'd think she'd be seeking Dean and Sam out for some kind of real truce but according to next week's previews she's apparently too busy lounging around in lingerie (see note in parentheses, above) and waiting for Sam to show up and exact his wholly inexplicable and seemingly unwarranted vengeance against her.

I don't know. I don't know. But hey...we did get to see Dean's One Perfect Tear! And wasn't it a beaut?! Pretty, pretty, pretty man.

Comments

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

It's been hinted at throughout the series that the love between them isn't exactly a two-way street but trying to choke someone to death after they're already down for the count? That's hate. That's pure, venomous hate, and hate that deep is not a new thing, it's not coming from a recent influx of demon-blood.

Here's the thing. You're absolutely right. What stirs me about this fact -- and it is one, beyond a doubt -- many times hate is love's next-door neighbor. Hate can be love's conjoined twin, its often unwelcome, resented, infuriating bosom buddy.

I honestly think that Sam hates Dean AND he loves him. Pure hatred is too simple an emotion to sum up, for me, how Sam feels. It describes a great chunk of it, but not everything.

But he sure as hell (as it were) resents that love. It is HIS weakness, his love for Dean, and he wants to be STRONG, he wants to be The One, the fucking Neo, man. He does not want to owe Dean anything, care about him; quite honestly he doesn't even want to think about Dean. Because Dean is dead. Dean's over, Dean's the past, Sam has Moved On.

Except, well, you see the problem; as Dean said himself, he's right there. And from the very first second, Sam hasn't had any room for that. Not anymore.

I keep thinking about the fact that it was Dean who killed Azazel. I sometimes wonder if that stuck in Sam's craw, badly. If somewhere in that jealous heart of his, he wants to kill Lilith because it's his turn. Dean was dead, Sam was going to rise triumphant.... with a little help from demon-tainted blood, of course, but never mind, I mean, what's a little addiction between friends, right?

Sam just hasn't got a clue how to fashion his new life with Dean in it. Dean does not belong. So discomfort turned to frustration, turned to resentment and the revisiting of old and mossy grievances, mixed with new revelations and a brand-new level of Dean-resentment in the form of Godly approval. Sam's demonic, but he's the one who believed in God -- Dean didn't, and then he gets touched by a motherfucking angel?

It's NOT FAIR. He gets all the best toys, and look at him! He's puny, he's weepy, he's sniffly and flawed and disgusting.

He doesn't deserve it. I do.

I dunno. You stirred up my thinking. Now I need a damn drink.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yes to everything you said and I really hope that the writers see what they've done here. I don't want to hear any more crap from angels about how Dean needs to stop whining and get over his issues when Sam is wallowing in almost all seven of the deadly sins and no one -- not even Dean -- has called him on it yet.

as Dean said himself, he's right there

Ah, but that was Hallucination!Dean saying that and I'm sure it's not something Sam enjoyed being reminded of.

Which reminds me that one thing they did do wonderfully in the episode was the cutting back-and-forth between Sam's very skewed vision of Dean as a judgmental, hateful bastard and the real Dean upstairs who was just going to pieces over Sam.

I keep thinking about the fact that it was Dean who killed Azazel. I sometimes wonder if that stuck in Sam's craw, badly.

Interesting point. Of course Dean deserved to be the one who killed Azazel -- he was the one who had witnessed his mother's death and who had to bear most of the responsibility for that his whole life, but I think Sam really bought into that "you're the one" crap that Azazel was dishing out without ever considering the source.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

Of course Dean deserved to be the one who killed Azazel -- he was the one who had witnessed his mother's death and who had to bear most of the responsibility for that his whole life, but I think Sam really bought into that "you're the one" crap that Azazel was dishing out without ever considering the source.

But don't forget that Sam deserved it more, because he lost Jess, and that counted in a way that Dean losing his mom didn't because it was more recent. ::sigh::

BTW, as you no doubt know, fully agreed re: Sera Gamble. Goddamn, I wish she'd fuck Jared and get some of it out of her system.

I do think Lilith is the last seal. But man, do I ever wonder what Castiel & Co. are going to do with Dean.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I wish she'd fuck Jared and get some of it out of her system.

I'm thinking of a crack that Jared and Jensen made at some con -- that when Sera writes an episode, it means that Sam will be naked and Dean will cry. And last night we had...Dean crying and Sam, not naked, but definitely getting it on. So those guys really know what they're dealing with.

I do think Lilith is the last seal.

Because Lilith wasn't even introduced (or thought up, I think) until the middle of S3, everything about her feels like a retcon. How could Lilith herself not know that she was a seal? My head hurts.

But man, do I ever wonder what Castiel & Co. are going to do with Dean.

I don't know but all that white light in the preview is making me nervous. I want Dean to continue being Dean, not be possessed by an archangel or something.

[emeraldus.livejournal.com]

I thought Sam's whole hallucination episode was like some twisted form of therapy. His younger self berating him for leaving normal behind, asking him why they'd changed so much, and not for the good. Then his mother who tells him what he wants to hear, that Dean is weak and he's strong and he has to make use of this "gift". Then for the final punch there's Dean hitting at his insecurities. And all through it is the running theme that Dean is wrong and he's right, which he can't believe in that fully, if he needs to have that hammered home so many times.

Was trying to think how Alistair worked into the therapy bit but then he was showing Sam basically what had been done to Dean, which again reinforces Sam's belief that he's doing this for Dean, who's too weak to do what it takes.

And it's funny but watching this through a couple times...Sam reminds me of my little brother and the whole attitude of trying to be patient and logical while explaining some crazy ass things he'd done, as if I was the one to be wrong by being mad at what he'd done.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

It was pretty one-sided therapy methinks, just Sam's head reinforcing the things that Sam has believed all along.

I was the one to be wrong by being mad at what he'd done.

This is totally Sam's attitude -- he's not at fault, it's everyone else who's wrong for not understanding all the tremendous pressure he's under and how the whole fate of the universe rests on him yada yada yada. It's immature and it's selfish and I wish someone would point that out to Sam.

[fates3.livejournal.com]

Wow, so well said, thank you!!!

That's my thing: I've always felt that Sam had some resentment and some dislike for Dean. But I also felt that he had loved him too, even if it was sometimes a "I'm so put upon" kind of love. But now, I truly believe Sam hates him. You don't do what he has done to Dean all season, culminating in trying to murder him, and say it's love. Or if you do, it's a sick and perverted love that Dean needs to get away from. NOW.

I just don't know how Show is going to come back from this. They have based the heart of this show on the love between the brothers, and that's hard to believe in when they have just shown that one of the brothers hates the other. Oh, he talks a good game when he's trying to show he's reasonable and sane, but when the layers are stripped, the truth is shown.

A man who loves his brother doesn't try and murder him when he's laying on the ground, down for the count.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

As janissa11 implied above, the inensity of Sam's hatred for Dean is probably bound up with love -- a love that he resents and doesn't want to acknowledge and that he thought he was finally rid of when Dean died. It really pains me to think that once Sam got over his initial shock over Dean's death, his primary emotion was probably relief. I don't buy the theory that Sam caved to Ruby so readily because he was grief-stricken. I think he felt liberated for the first time in a long time to do what he wanted to do without his "bossy" brother trying to set him straight.

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

Dean's pretty-pretty. And it makes me crack up thinking how it would bug Dean to be called pretty and possibly have him reply, all annoyed-but-secretly-plesed, that he's manly.

This important thing stated, I'm agreeing with you here, especially about Sam. I remember thinking, the first time I watched Asylum (when I wasn't even in the fandom and all the Sam vs Dean crap wasn't even a blip on my radar) that Sam hates Dean. There was so much resentment brought to the fore in that episode. It is understandable coming from a little brother, but man, it hurts nonetheless, especially when the older brother is Dean, who's wrapped his entire life around Sam.

I saw this happening again in this episode. It's not that Sam doesn't love Dean. It's that Sam resents his love for Dean and resents how much Dean loves him. On an unconscious level, perhaps, but it's there. I understand, it's hard living up and with that kind of love. It makes for a dual response: Sam wants to be grateful, but he also feels guilty that he couldn't live up to it.

So, from there, comes the bullshit. If Dean's screwed then so is his love. Dean's weak, doesn't understand, doesn't know Sam. I actually really really hope that the addiction is not a reset button to swipe away these issues, because it's high time they deal with it. Perhaps after, they can be stronger as brothers, even though, I despair that some issues will ever be cured.

And Sam is leaving Dean for Ruby, choosing her over Dean. I've read about people thinking that Sam's treating Ruby as just a weapon, but it was clear, imo at least, that he was also getting comfort and unconditional love and validation in the forms Sam "wants" from Ruby. It's definitely Sam leaving for what he wants.

Not that I can't see Dean's faults, as well. Or that he doesn't have any. Or that he hasn't made bad calls. But Dean always comes back to Sam, and save, protect him. I don't have doubts that he will this time, too. Even if I secretly hope that when all is said and done, Dean will go away, alone, not forever, but for a while.

Oh, wow, I've ranted at you!

eta: or in other words, what janissa11 said. :) Hate is a degeneration of extreme love.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I remember thinking, the first time I watched Asylum (when I wasn't even in the fandom and all the Sam vs Dean crap wasn't even a blip on my radar) that Sam hates Dean.

Part of my assessment of Sam is based on my own recollection of Season One, when I'd had no exposure to the assorted fanwanks, metas and speculations of fandom. I remember watching "Asylum" and thinking that Sam's hatred of his brother was so glaring that it was destined to become one of the core themes of the show. Even as late in Season One as "Salvation," Sam was talking about how he couldn't wait to kill off the YED so he could get back to his real life -- and I remember how Dean's face just fell. I wasn't even a fledgling Deangirl at the time and I still felt horribly sorry for him and thought that Sam guy was a huge asshole.

I really want to believe that Sam does love Dean and that the sheer intensity of his hatred is fueled by this mental conflict. But I don't know. If I wanted to be brutally honest, and go only by what the show has told me, I'd say that Sam probably grew up thinking of Dean as just being there and took his being there for granted, the way children do. As he got older I think he came to see Dean as both an ally and a dupe of the father that he longed to escape. And he did escape and then what happened? Dean happened. Dean turned up back in his life and, in Sam's opinion, ruined everything.

That CRD back in "Bedtime Stories" was really onto something. She accurately that Sam would be happy to be rid of "sloppy, needy Dean" and Sam was...or at least, he wasn't all that upset about it. And now he thinks he's got a good thing going with Ruby and all these awesome new powers of his and he sure doesn't want Dean to ruin it for him again. Like you, I hope Sam's inevitable addiction cure won't be used to just dismiss what this addiction has exposed about his character and his feelings towards Dean, but I'm sure it will. The show loves to create these catastrophes and then just handwave them under the rug. I don't really see how Sam and Dean can possibly have the same relationship after this, but...well, we'll see.

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

I'd say that Sam probably grew up thinking of Dean as just being there and took his being there for granted, the way children do.

Funny you say that, because it happens to be what I think. I don't get the same conclusion that Sam thinks Dean is the cause of all his suffering (even though, I was a bit disturbed that Sam blamed his going with Dean to look for John as cause of Jess' death, but that's an entire other meta), because I've seen Sam expressely recognise in Devil's Trap that Dean was more important than revenge (with that wonderful, glorious look at the rearview mirror). I do think, though, that the show is showing what you say explicitly. Dean is physically incapable of leaving Sam. How many times he tried to leave and he just couldn't? Of course, Sam takes him for granted. He even says so in this episode when he hopes to fix things. Assuming that Dean will be open to the fixing, because Dean has always been open to the fixing.

Yeah, the CRD words are still resonating with me. The anger Sam expressed after she said those words (killing her without any real reason) show to me that they were in part true. Expression of a deep unconscious need to be finally free of the burden Dean is for Sam. With his extreme love for him. To Sam, it feels, at times, suffocating.

Honestly, like you, I wonder if they're going to deal with these issues or just forget them. It'll get old too fast if the same issues gets used over and over again. I hope so, strongly. SPN is made for me by the characters' interaction, by the emotional growth, the mitharc being just background noise.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the CRD words are still resonating with me. The anger Sam expressed after she said those words (killing her without any real reason) show to me that they were in part true.

Yes, and he never denied what she was saying or laughed it off, or anything. He told her to shut up and then he shot her. I've always thought it's not the lies the demons get you with, but the truth and she really hit on a raw nerve of truth right there.

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

Does anyone else think Sam's resentment towards Dean is that old father-son thing going on? Dean has been more of a father to Sam than John ever was. Sons rebel against their fathers, from the beginning of time. Lucifer's sin was pride, and that's Sam's major issue too. He really wants to believe he's the One, and he's surpassed Dean in every way. And he's doing everything he can to negate the love he feels for Dean, because it holds him back from going all-out to fulfill his "destiny." It's that tiny seed of doubt that's making him crazy, along with the addiction he has for Ruby.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

It's hard to say. I'm sure that the show wanted Dean's last words in this episode to echo John's words to Sam before Sam left for Stanford, but if Sam is rejecting Dean because of a father/son conflict then Sam is misguided. Sam is the one who's like John, not Dean, but Sam's so screwed in the head right now that I don't really know what he's thinking.

It is clear from Sam's own hallucinations that he blames Dean for dragging him back into the hunter's life, that he imagines his own mother would take his side over Dean's and that he sees Dean as a bellowing, judgmental son-of-a-bitch. On top of all that he's convinced himself that he's The Chosen One and Ruby is more than happy to tell Sam exactly what he wants to hear -- while letting him fuck her and crack out on her toxic blood. Now Sam thinks that Dean wants to "spoil" all of this for him and the lifelong resentment that he's had for Dean seems to have strangled whatever real love he also had. It's definitely an...interesting road for the show to take but I sure hope they know what they're doing, and how to fix it.

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

What I'm afraid of is that they don't intend to fix it. I can't see how they could, and the road they're on leads to destruction for one or both of them. Battlestar Galactica was a dark show, with dark themes, but it never became as utterly black and hopeless as Supernatural has become this season. It's actually painful to watch it.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I don't mind darkness at all but I do mind the way SPN refuses to take it seriously. They write themselves into the absolute rock bottom of despair and then they just make it go bye-bye when they don't want to deal with it anymore. We might wonder how Dean could possibly trust Sam after this, but I guarantee that will be "resolved" with a few skimpy lines of dialogue or possibly one of the show's patented roadside encounter sessions and then everything will magically be okay.

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

You're probably right, and if they do that, I'm not sure I can keep watching it. These characters that I love are being savaged, and, as you say, the writers seem to be pretty cavalier about resolving things in any kind of believable way.

[pensive]

Basically everything you posted. I am especially hip to your notes on Castiel swearing Dean in the way he did. I buy that loophole wholesale!

Also the meta on Sam hating Dean above. That just CLICKED everything in this season into place for me.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hope Castiel knows what he's doing because Dean doesn't have anyone else on his side right now!

[pensive]

Well, like you said, I think he does know what he's doing but he has to be more sekrit about it. After all, that whole "this is how you protect a prophet" thing, hee.

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say that I agree with you and janissa11 and smilla02 that Sam's hatred for Dean (which, yeah, has been there for a while) is bound up with his love for Dean, and maybe especially Dean's love for him.

One thing we say in 4.21 that we haven't really seen much of this season is how much Sam craves Dean's approval, respect, love. When he's hallucinating Dean, and DT!Dean is about to say "monster" and Sam says "no, no, don't you say it!": OUCH.

So much of that detox scene was about Sam's self-hatred, his sense of failure (which again, we haven't heard much about lately), that his murderous rage, at someone who had dared to love him, to keep loving him, seemed come out of that...

Also, you're still right about Dean--he can't leave. Even though he finds his "line" about Sam, it's still Sam who walks out the door, same as always...

::worried about next week::

[oselle.livejournal.com]

You are a lot more charitable towards Sam than I am. What you see as self-hatred, I see as self-pity. True, the hallucination of Young Sam did ask Sam how he let himself sink so low but then he dropped that bomb about how Jess died because Sam "went off" with Dean as if everything would have been fine if only Dean hadn't shown up at Stanford, or if only Sam had been able to turn his brother away. We also had a very bizarre hallucination of Mary indulgently telling Sam how wonderful he is and how Dean is wrong about him and while I know the human psyche is complex, that sure doesn't feel like self-loathing to me.

I don't even know if I'd agree that he craves Dean's approval -- Sam was bitching about how Dean supposedly treated him/looked at him like a "freak" long before Dean ever did that...it's more like Sam knows that's what he's become but he just doesn't want to hear about it. That's not a craving for approval, that's fingers-in-the-ears-la-la-la denial.

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

Well, self-hatred is a version of self-pity...

But yeah, it's the puppy-dog eyes: the look in Sam's eyes when DT!Dean is yelling at him. (and no, we haven't seen Sam looking for Dean's approval much this season, or ever, so either it's a reveal, or just ret-con inconsistency. The only time I can remember him doing it is in "Fresh Blood.")

What can I say, though: overly sympathetic to self-pitying men--story of my life, and it's gotten me in plenty of trouble before!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

The difference between Sam and Dean, though, is that Sam seems to turn his self-pity (or self-hatred, if you prefer) outward, finding others (namely Dean) to blame it on, while Dean just punishes himself.

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with you there! Dean only blames himself, and only takes it out on himself. And he never sees his own failings (or suffering) as a reason why others should suffer. Quite the opposite in fact. The show seems to have been emphasizing this (beautiful, and strangely idealistic) aspect of Dean lately: in the little exchange in JTS ("it's too late for us, Sam, I accept that..." when he just gets past his jealousy of Adam) and in 4.20, when he reminisces about how they used to help people return to their families. But I think--though I haven't gone back to check--that it's all pretty similar to what he says in "Wendigo" (1.2!) about why they should be "saving people, hunting things." In other words, Dean sees the damage done to his own family as the REASON they should help other families--the more he hates himself the harder he seems to work at it.

Whereas Sam...yeah...

sorry for the rant--it's one of the things I love about Dean--and I hope something good comes from it for him--other than being dicked around, or having to kill his brother, or being possessed, or other fuckery...though I'm not holding my breath!

[oxer12.livejournal.com]

I think that my question about Sam's nonchalant attitude towards Dean's return in the season premiere has been answered by this episode. I'm now convinced that Sam was not all that happy that Dean was back. I mean, yes, he was happy to see him, but I initially thought he was acting so blah about it because he was still in shock, and now I think he was just annoyed.

And I really, REALLY didn't enjoy Sam clocking Bobby with the rifle. That seemed so brutal. :-(

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I think it says something about Dean that he has not once brought up the fact Sam is not happy to have him back. I mean for crying out loud -- he must have noticed. We all did.

What kills me is that Sam knew Dean was in hell. He couldn't even delude himself with, "Oh well, Dean's in a better place/he's at rest/etc." He knew Dean was in hell and was content to leave him there because it meant that Dean was out of his hair. And this was presumably before the demon blood had really gotten a hold on him. That's cold, man. Ice cold.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Couldn't they have had Sam seduced by power and demon-blood without having him literally seduced as well?

A thousand times yes. Sam's character and story-line has been significantly weakened by the fact they decided to have his fall double as "romance".

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I am sure that the writers thought it would be very dark and sultry and vampiric to make sex part of the Sam and Ruby dynamic but IMO, the sex has not only weakened Sam's character but...it's just not working.

The sex could have worked if the show had taken a different approach to it but they've gone about it so half-assedly. They can't seem to decide if Sam and Ruby are fucking like animals or making sweet love. They rushed into the consummation so quickly it was like Sam and Ruby were a couple of horny kids on prom night. Not to mention they served up one of the lamest, most laughable seductions I've ever seen. I'm still cringing over lines like, "It's warm in this body." Ugh...get me rewrite.

A combination of bad writing and one-note acting has made Genevieve Cortese's Ruby more puzzling than sexy and it doesn't help that she goes cross-eyed whenever she has to stare meaningfully into Sam's eyes. Jared himself has joked that he knows he'll be naked if he sees Sera Gamble's name on a script and I swear, at this point it feels like she's just using this relationship to play out sex fantasies about Jared or Sam. Seriously, Sera...save it for fanfic.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

The writing of Sam/Ruby has certainly been all over the place and it hasn't helped that they had to do all that last-minute firefighting because they'd thought it was fine and dandy for Sam to be having sex with a posessed woman. However, my really big problem with them selling it as credible is with the performance. If they wanted Ruby 2.0 to be a seductress then they should have hired someone who could play a seductress.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

If they wanted Ruby 2.0 to be a seductress then they should have hired someone who could play a seductress.

Now, I thought the scene between Sam and the doctor in "Sex and Violence" was very seductive and very well-played by both actors but that was probably because the writers knew what they were doing -- writing a straight-out seduction scene. I don't think they've quite figured out what they're doing with Ruby, so while I think her seduction scenes are supposed to be all dark and sexy, they tend to have more of a bzuh? quality to them.

And while I agree that G. Cortese doesn't bring too much skill to the role, it really would have taken a phenomenally talented actress to have pulled off some of those lines. Or at the least, an actress who looked like a grown-up. I think part of the reason the seduction scene worked in "Sex and Violence" was because the doctor looked -- and behaved -- like a grown woman, not a sulky coed. But of course, we just can't have any female recurring characters on the show who look like they're hovering near 30. I think the producers of the show have seen Logan's Run a few too many times.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree that Ruby as seductress (and Lilith when she's doing it for that matter) would be better if played by someone older, but we know from Kripke's comments about the possibility of Dean hooking up with Ellen that he thinks older women and younger men are icky - despite the fact that the age gap between Dean and Ellen must have been very similar to that between Dean and Jo.

Neither of the Rubys have played the part with the gravitas of someone who's supposed to have been around for hundreds, if not thousands, of years (depending on what plague she was talking about). However, I found Cassidy's snarky cheerleader more convincing than... whatever it is that Cortese is being when she's on screen, even leaving aside the still unexplained character shift. After all that time, I might have got bitchy and petty!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

he thinks older women and younger men are icky

Well, I doubt he's alone in that. I'm sure that the show's leads, producers, writers, and assorted network executives all the way up to Les Moonves are united in their disapproval of older women, which in SPN's case would appear to be anyone over 28 or so. In SPNverse Ellen was positively decrepit -- that old thing with Dean?? BLEAGH!! Disgusting!

I could go way off topic here and talk about how depressing it is that no matter how old actors get, their female co-stars mysteriously stay the same age (20-something, or maybe 30-something tops if the actor is in his fifties or older). But there is no point to that discussion at all. It is what it is. Sigh.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

But don't forget - we're the ones who are sexist.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

You're right, of course. From here on, I vow to embrace, promote and write fawning fanfiction about every one-dimensional, poorly developed, badly acted, ill-fitting, flirty "badass" character on Supernatural as long as said character has a vagina, all in the name of proving my feminist cred.