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oselleHmm, kind of a mixed bag this week.
1. They Have Support Groups For That, Y'know.
I'm beginning to think someone on this show must have an eating disorder, because I feel like I've seen more than a few episodes over the years that revolve around people graphically gorging themselves -- with food, blood, flesh, whatever. Last night's episode reached new heights of grossout. While I liked the idea that the scourge of Famine is not limited to food alone, but involves all sorts of starvation, the show chose to express this primarily with revolting imagery of people literally stuffing their gullets. I know that the writers take a B-movieish delight in this sort of thing and I'm hardly a fainting-couch type about it myself, but there's a difference between "horror" and "yech" and most of what was going on last night was just "yech."
2. That's Enough Now
I adore Misha Collins and I adore Castiel. I love the way he effortlessly plays the straight man to Dean's one-liners...but I don't want that to get out of hand. I still laugh when Castiel deadpans a mystified response to one of Dean's pop-culture references, but by now I'm laughing warily because I can see that the writers are loving this so much that it's going to become a permanent part of Castiel's character. Peppering it in now and then is funny -- including it in every episode is not. (And of course, if Castiel is starving for anything, it's not hamburger, it's Dean but...well, can't go there.)
3. Trust Issues
There are some shows that I watch whose writers I really trust. Meaning that I don't question what they've written, or question the motives behind it. Those writers may surprise me, or knock me for a loop, but I don't sit there questioning what I'm supposed to take away from a certain scene or line of dialogue. Supernatural is not one of those shows.
Scene in question here is when Dean slugs the cherub. I can understand Dean's anger -- here's this bubbly little feller blithely gushing about John and Mary's "match made in heaven" as if it were a Nicholas Sparks novel, not something that ended in horrific tragedy and years of anguish for all involved...I felt like slugging the bastard too. But then we get Sam's shocked response: "What is up with you lately?"
If I trusted the writers then Sam's response would tell me that something's wrong with Sam. That he's out of touch with his brother and has been for a very long time, that he's been wholly involved with himself to the exclusion of everyone else. But with this crew of writers, I think that what I was supposed to take away from that scene, and Sam's response, was Wow, Sam's right...something is really wrong with Dean! Why, whatever could it be??
These writers have developed a bizarre disconnect between what they show us and what they tell us. For a long time they've been showing us a character, Dean, who for years (decades, if you include his time in hell), has been dumped on, dragged down, crushed, tormented and annihalated in every way possible and yet somehow keeps picking himself up and moving on. But then they go and tell us (through Sam) that there's something really weird about him ever letting any of that show. What is up with Dean lately? Shit...what isn't up with Dean? What the fuck is up with Sam that he would even ask that?
And of course, my distrust of the writers in this area also stems from their demonstrated attachment to Television Without Pity, with its never-ending disparaging of Dean. This just felt like more of the same: Sam's the level-headed good guy and the voice of reason, Dean's the blustering doofus who can't control his temper.
4. Dead Inside?
Setting aside the fact that Sam's question was stunningly callous and ignorant (which, sadly, I've come to expect from Sam), I think it was supposed to anvil us with this episode's theme: Dean is falling apart. We got this idea pounded on us from the opening THEN montage right up to the end.
As I said above in (3), Dean has every reason to fall apart and for all that some viewers sneer at his "whining" and "issues" he has done an heroic job of holding himself together since getting back from hell. However, I'm not sure what to make of Famine's judgment that Dean's "dead inside." Famine is not a demon, so we can't assume he's lying, and Dean's own reaction in that scene would seem to confirm that, deep down, he believed Famine was speaking the truth. But I don't think Dean's dead inside at all. I do think that he's exhausted physically and spiritually, and I think that he's had so much shit piled on him, and, worse yet, been so left to deal with that shit all on his own, that he's just at the end of his rope. But "dead inside?"
Someone who's dead inside has given up. Completely. If Dean were dead inside, he wouldn't care what happened to Sam, he wouldn't care about the Apocalypse, he'd be off somewhere getting drunk and banging strippers until Michael showed up and then he'd say, "Yeah, what the fuck. Just let me get back to banging strippers when you're done." I don't see that in Dean at all. Dean is at the end of his rope but he's still holding on...or trying to. Whether he's doing it for Sam, or himself, or his lifelong sense of duty, or for the whole world doesn't matter. He hasn't given up.
5. However...
When Dean walked out into the junkyard at the end of the episode, I just didn't know what was going to happen. Now...I wish I'd recorded that episode because at first, wasn't Dean just standing there, mouthing words but not saying them out loud? Or was that just the sound on my crappy TV flipping out? Because that? Scared the shit out of me.
I really thought he was calling for Michael. My heart was just in my throat. And even while I was sitting there thinking He can't possibly do this yet! There are still eight episodes to go!!, I was also positive that was what he was doing. Not because he was "dead inside" or had given up but because he just saw that as the only thing he could do. The only thing left. To me, that wouldn't have been a passive submission but an active, albeit desperate, seizing of his one chance to do something, anything to fix this. To fix everything. And I think that's what Michael is waiting for -- for Dean to say yes because he wants to or, more correctly, because he has to. Doing something because you have no other choice isn't exactly an exercise of free will but I don't think Michael is too concerned about the specifics. He's waiting for Dean to believe, as he does, that this is just the way it has to be.
I think my conviction that Michael was about to appear shook me up so much that what came afterwards seemed like an anticlimax. I mean, we've all seen Dean in tears before (and oh, how I just cringe thinking about the TWoP crowd rolling their eyes over this). But thinking back on it, the whole scene was a beautiful piece of acting. For someone who's led something of a charmed life, Jensen Ackles can paint an utterly convincing portrait of despair -- what it looks like, sounds like, feels like. I don't know if Dean was out there praying to God, Michael, his father...it doesn't matter. He was doing what people always do when they reach the end of all their resources -- begging for help, any help, from anyone who might be listening. To see this happen to a character like Dean -- who hardly ever asks for or expects assistance, no matter what -- is all the more stunning. And it tells me, again, that Dean hasn't given up. Giving up is when you stop asking for help...not when you start.
Now, Show? Please don't ruin the exquisite pathos of that scene -- and Jensen's wonderful performance -- by turning that into yet another example of Dean's "weakness." Just...stay off the forums, okay? Do your homework. Behave yourselves. And I'll see you in March.
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Re: amen sister!
Date: 2010-02-13 01:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 01:02 am (UTC)(Just spent a couple of days with your Dean and Castiel in my car. It was awesome.)
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Date: 2010-02-13 01:05 am (UTC)Just spent a couple of days with your Dean and Castiel in my car.
For a minute, I was like...um okaaaaaay...and then I remembered oh, the podfic. LOL! Jeez, drive carefully will ya?
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Date: 2010-02-13 02:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 03:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 02:13 am (UTC)But ... I think Dean was praying ... And I think his words were more directed to God rather than Michael. And I'm more than on board with God speaking directly to Dean, bypassing heaven and Michael and Castiel or any angel whatsoever.
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 03:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 03:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 02:30 am (UTC)And I used to visit TWoP, but everyone there was so negative.. I think constructive critisism is fine, but they b*tch about everything.
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 03:05 am (UTC)Yup, that makes me think of a scene in Oliver Twist where he's facing the board of governors at the place where he grew up and he has no idea who they are or what's happening and he's terrified. So one of them at one point says, "What's it crying for?" And the narrator says: To be sure, it was a mystery. What could the child be crying for?
That's Dean.
I hate that you can't trust any of their wonderfully funny touches because you figure they're going to run them into the ground. I'd hate them to not appreciate that the whole reason Castiel's even funny is because Misha Collins makes him an actual character.
Also, are we now to think that Zachariah was just being an asshole when he told Dean to suck it up? And Dean got all reinvested because of it?
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:28 am (UTC)BINGO. Which makes Sam just as much of an asshole as those governors. Problem is...I don't think the writers see it that way. Maybe they should slip in a little Dickens with their perusal of Maxim.
I hate that you can't trust any of their wonderfully funny touches because you figure they're going to run them into the ground.
Kripke's demonstrated a love of 70s-era television that I find endearing, considering we're of the same generation, but annoying -- because the "charm" of 70s television was that it was so fucking bad. There's a reason the very idea of "jumping the shark" came from Happy Days -- they took the breakout character of Fonzie and made him do ever more preposterously "cool" things until he was...jumping sharks in his leather jacket. It was like, let's take what people love about this character and exaggerate it until the guy (and the show) becomes a joke. So yeah, while I'm still enjoying Castiel very much, I get nervous that Kripke's nostalgia for the TV of his youth is going to make him pull a Fonzie on us.
are we now to think that Zachariah was just being an asshole when he told Dean to suck it up?
Well, that's back to the trust issues. What are we supposed to think about that? According to Sera Gamble, who wrote that episode, Zachariah gave Dean "a much-needed shot in the arm." Really, Sera? Is that what we're supposed to think? Is that what you think? Or are we gonna read some future interview with her where she says, "Oh no, Zach was just being an asshole, that was what I meant." It's like you can get whiplash watching this show.
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Date: 2010-02-13 06:31 am (UTC)You know sometimes I wonder if the writers actually watch the episodes themselves. It's like they sit around in the writers room coming up with their brilliant ideas on paper, then they go off to write their episodes, then meet back up for the next story meeting without ever stopping to see what the writers and directors have done with their words.
It's like there is this huge disconnect between what the writers think they are writing and what the (non-Deanhating) viewers are seeing. I mean seriously, who would think that "suck it up loser" was an appropriate response to On The Head of a Pin? It's very puzzling.
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:13 pm (UTC)I think part of it may be a lack of communication between the writers and producers, and part of it may be a little bit of arrogance. Whenever I hear parts of an interview with Kripke or Gamble, I get the impression that they think they totally know what they're doing and they're also doing a great job at it and I'm sorry, but that just isn't showing up on screen.
I read about other showrunners, like Mad Men's Matthew Weiner, being "control freaks" about their show and nightmares to work for and while that may be hell on the cast and crew it makes for good television. SPN could benefit from a little bit of that discipline. The writers and producers at SPN always sound like they're having a ball and that's super for them but they're not getting paid to tell fart jokes in the writers' room or belly up to the tiki bar in Kripke's office. This isn't spring break. They've got a great premise to work with and a talented cast and every once in a while they manage to turn out something brilliant but more often than not, especially lately, it just looks like no one's at the wheel.
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Date: 2010-02-13 08:58 pm (UTC)They couldn't be that juvenile could they?
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Date: 2010-02-13 09:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 06:34 am (UTC)But Jensen is amazing.
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 08:15 am (UTC)I agree, I don't think that Dean is dead inside either. I think it's totally possible that Famine was either wrong, or just jerking Dean's chain to make him feel worse. He couldn't reach him with his powers, but maybe he could reach Dean with his words. But someone who is dead inside, wouldn't still care about his brother, his friends, and the whole entire freaking world. Someone who is dead inside wouldn't be saying "I have to save EVERYONE" and mean it. The guy is broken, he's depressed, he's wounded and desperately needs support and rest, but he's not dead inside.
And oh man, so much word to your thoughts on trusting the writers! Every time I think "wow, they're really going someplace with this" whether it's Dean's PTSD or Sam's redemption arc or whatever, the next ep either ignores it all or retcons it into nothing. And it just gets so damn frustrating. I mean, to some degree - compared to other storylines on this show - they have been pretty consistent with Dean being so wounded, but on the other hand, they have also pissed it away with stupid reactions, ignorance for episodes at a time, and/or "suck it up, whiner" comments from the people who "love" him, that totally denigrate it. And I just don't get it.
And one final note: Yea, TWOP has become very anti-Dean. Some keep trying, but it's hard when the recapper/mod and the board mod think banning Dean fans is fine, while letting the anti Dean fans who break rules constantly get away with it. It's driven a lot of Dean fans away, which leaves the place to those who think bashing Dean is a sport :-/
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:38 pm (UTC)Yeah, I don't get it...it all adds to the "whiplash" effect I often get from this show. Do they want me to empathize with Dean or do they want me to agree with the people who yell at him all the time and tell him to suck it up? Or am I supposed to do both? How do I do that?
Every once in a while, a person really does need to be told to suck it up, but for God's sake, SPN does this OVER AND OVER AND OVER again with Dean...and over stuff that's far from trivial. Dean isn't moping about getting dumped by a girlfriend or something. I remember at the end of Season 4, the episode before the finale ended with Dean lying on the floor, totally devastated by Sam's betrayal...and then picked up again next week with Bobby yelling "Boo-hoo princess!" at him. Is that what I'm supposed to think, too? Am I supposed to like this character and feel for him and then treat him like some whiny little brat at the same time?
It's driven a lot of Dean fans away, which leaves the place to those who think bashing Dean is a sport
You're not the first person to tell me how much worse it's gotten over there. You hit the nail on the head when you call it a "sport." That's exactly what it is. It started a couple of years ago with that asshole Demian and Barnes slavishly backed him up and all the jerks and suckups got in line and now they're all having a fine old time turning Dean into a pinata. And the SPN writers are into it. That burns my ass like you don't know.
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Date: 2010-02-13 07:25 pm (UTC)From the DVD commentary Kripke really thought Dean was a whiner in 4.22. I don't get it.
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Date: 2010-02-13 08:13 pm (UTC)From the DVD commentary Kripke really thought Dean was a whiner in 4.22.
I don't listen to the commentaries at all because I've had people tell me what they say on them, and it's always a contradiction of something they've said before, blatant stupidity (like this), or a big old pat on the back for themselves, which they frequently don't deserve.
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Date: 2010-02-20 12:17 am (UTC)The thing that makes it even crazier is that Dean, who is the King of Repression, is also then hounded to talk about his feelings and get it all out.
So, which is he supposed to do: talk it over and get it out, or shut the hell up and stop whining? Can't have both, Show! Especially not when you have the King of Whiners on the show, being allowed to vomit all of his inane worries all over the place, and no one tells him a damn thing. (Yea, I'm still annoyed over Sam's constant whining of his evil density for several seasons, LOL)
You're not the first person to tell me how much worse it's gotten over there. You hit the nail on the head when you call it a "sport." That's exactly what it is. It started a couple of years ago with that asshole Demian and Barnes slavishly backed him up and all the jerks and suckups got in line and now they're all having a fine old time turning Dean into a pinata. And the SPN writers are into it. That burns my ass like you don't know.
Exactly. It's just even more aggravating since Kripke has admitted he reads those boards. Which means the unbalance and the bias makes it even more worrying for fans who are worried that the Dean side of the fandom is getting deliberately pushed out so as to "prove" a biased POV.
And, seriously, it's amazing to me that a recapper can wish for death for entire groups of people, and make racist and sexist remarks in his recaps, and he still is around, while others get banned for posting a remark in the wrong thread :-/
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Date: 2010-02-20 11:51 pm (UTC)I now snort loudly any time someone -- usually Sam -- tells Dean, "talk to me" or some variation thereof. Because every time he does, Sam just uses it as ammo to tell him what a weakling he is. Meanwhile Dean has to absorb everyone else's whining -- from Sam ("Waaah, you're gonna leave me in this craphole world and you think I'm a freak!)" to Anna ("Waaah, angels can't have sex or chocolate cake!") to Bobby ("Waaah, I'm old and stuck in a wheelchair!"). Good LORD. It just never ends.
Don't expect this to get solved by the new showrunner. Sera Gamble's a Samgirl and has been happy to play along with the "suck it up" chant as far as Dean is concerned.
It's just even more aggravating since Kripke has admitted he reads those boards.
He didn't just admit to reading them, he wrote them into the show. And as for Demian...he doesn't just say shit like that in his recaps, he says them on the boards too, as well as engaging in other sorts of taboo behavior like "stating opinion as fact" and the dreaded "boards on boards" which is pretty much his stock-in-trade. There are good recappers over there -- SPN had one for the first season. I wish they'd turn SPN over to one of them and let Demian splooge his humorless and offensive snark over some other show.
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Date: 2010-02-13 08:57 am (UTC)Also, I don't think I'm going to eat anything ever again. *heaves*
Is it just me or do the writers increasingly seem like they're tripping acid in the back room? I mean, the levels of crack on the actual show has exceeded the best efforts of fandom.
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 09:05 am (UTC)SO MUCH YES. Apart from the fact that I'm very pissed at some fans comments about Dean's angst when we've seen him basically suck it up for 11 episodes this season alone (but then that's goes hand in hand with SPN fandom), it confuses me that Sam doesn't react to that bit of information about their parents. It seems to me that that is a very good reason to be angry and the fact that Sam asks Dean what's wrong is mind-boggling.
My idea is that this makes a disservice to Sam, though, not to Dean. Because he comes across as, I don't know, unfeeling? Detached?
And I liked the episode and the bits of Dean&Sam in it. And I liked Sam. Still. Get a clue, man.
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:50 pm (UTC)That's an excellent point and it highlights that Sam has never felt about his parents the way Dean does -- he doesn't remember his mother at all and his father's death had nowhere near the effect on him that it had on Dean. If I were a dedicated Dean-basher I'd say this was just more evidence that Dean is "weak." But the truth is Sam really is detached and unfeeling. He hasn't experienced the kinds of losses that Dean has, and even when he does lose someone he loves (or supposedly loves), like Dean, he bounces back really quickly. What is that? Is that "strength?" Or is it something far less positive -- entrenched, lifelong hardness of heart? From what I've seen, my money's on the latter.
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Date: 2010-02-13 07:11 pm (UTC)It's funny that you say this now when I'm having many, long and thinky thoughts about what is strength and what isn't, especially in relation of this last episode and the demon's blood and the powers and the very appealling (to me) fragility of Dean's humaness.
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Date: 2010-02-14 12:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-13 09:13 am (UTC)I'm not that bad anymore but I'm sure anyone who's been clinically depressed know what I'm talking about.
And Dean? Isn't anywhere approaching that hopeless. I'm not just scornful - I'm offended. "Dead Inside" my foot! Not that he doesn't have every right to be - any normal person would have hole themselves up somewhere soaking in drugs and booze waiting for the Apocalypse. But he isn't. He still, miraculously, gives a shit. And belittling the enormity of that really pisses me off.
So on behalf of people who actually have been in that place at some point in their lives - fuck you, Kripke!
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:57 pm (UTC)Dean is still fighting. He's asking for help. And when he finally does say yes to Michael, it won't be because he's given up or because he's "dead," it'll be because he sees no other way. It will just be an extension of the sense of duty he's had his whole life. I'm sure other people will spin it differently, but they can kiss my ass.
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Date: 2010-02-13 10:24 am (UTC)Rather, I was sure that Dean was "immune" to Famine because what Dean was hungry for was a little normalcy, a little rest, and a little reprieve from worry. Think about it: what's Dean really hungry for? I don't imagine Famine could control exactly what hungers he brought out in people. Maybe all Dean was hungry for was for once, this job to not completely fuck him up. ;D
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Date: 2010-02-13 04:04 pm (UTC)I like that idea. Maybe Dean wasn't so much immune to Famine, maybe it's just that there's no way for him to satisfy his own deepest hunger, so that he lost interest in all the things he's normally craved -- food, sex, etc. I kind of doubt the writers had this in mind, but it's an excellent answer -- makes way more sense, and is a whole lot more complex, than saying he's "dead inside."
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Date: 2010-02-13 03:10 pm (UTC)Dean does need help, he can't do it alone, but Jensen shows that Dean is not weak because he is asking for help, but strong, because he isn't giving to his pride in thinking he can do it alone.
Dean Winchester rocks.
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Date: 2010-02-13 04:15 pm (UTC)I didn't just split to get away from the venomous atmosphere, though. The site is owned by a huge corporation and so it is far more than just a fansite -- it's a business. Advertising matters to them and advertising is dependent upon site traffic. Part of my decision to bail from TWoP was because I didn't want my presence boosting their stats, tiny as that boost would be. The contempt for Dean has overflowed into contempt for Dean's (and Jensen's) fans, and while I'm not stupid enough to think my departure (or the departure of all Dean/Jensen fans, period) would bring TWoP to its knees, I'm sure as hell not going to patronize any business that so consistently revels in being condescending and sometimes outright abusive to me and others who share my opinions.
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Date: 2010-02-13 05:54 pm (UTC)IKR? I can't be the only one who expected Dean next line after saying he "wasn't feeling it" would be "Look, Sam, there's something I've been meaning to tell you--I'm kinda in a committed relationship right now..."
And I so agree with you about Sam's reaction to Dean punching Cupid--for all the reasons you state, and also: Sam? it's your brother Dean--he punches stuff appropriately and inappropriately all the time--he's punched you pretty frequently (which you deserved), and even smashed the Impala once. This is not uncharacteristic behavior (and the guy just insulted his mother).
And yeah, the idea that Dean has no soul or is dead inside is ridiculous, cf. the last scene...In which Jensen was amazing. The show likes to exploit Dean's pain, but it's like JA has turned it into some amazing acting exercise, in which he finds a new spin, a new nuance of emotion, every time--it's kind of technically brilliant at the same time as it's devastating.
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Date: 2010-02-13 08:26 pm (UTC)The show likes to exploit Dean's pain, but it's like JA has turned it into some amazing acting exercise, in which he finds a new spin, a new nuance of emotion, every time--it's kind of technically brilliant at the same time as it's devastating.
Absolutely. Poor Jensen is so good at this that he's constantly be recruited to do it and I imagine that he must get kind of sick of it but he always makes it work. Considering how the other actors on the show seem to be left to flail without much focus, I have to imagine that this is coming from Jensen himself and not from any direction that he's getting.
And he's hot.
Castiel
Date: 2010-02-13 06:49 pm (UTC)It actually pained me to watch Cas, so wanting to be there for Dean, so wanting Dean to come to him to cry on his shoulder and how he was powerless to reach out and give him a hug - is Cas powerless from his guilt at succumbing to his lust for raw beef instead of saving the day, from letting Sam out of the Panic room last Season, in other words, from Cas' inner workings- or is this because SPN is written by a bunch of geeky, emotionally repressed, immature little homophobes who care more about ratings and what TWOP thinks than about writing an honest show? Now I know this is TV, I know that this is not the real world, but what makes the best sci-fi and fantasy are characters who ring true, who are real. Man up, guys and gals, you wanted to test out the deep waters - NOW SWIM!
I think we've come to a point where what Cas and Dean are feeling towards each other needs to be expressed. Too many one liners and not enough arms around the shoulder and pats on the back. How about: "Please, Cas, I'm dying here. I don't know what to do. Help me." Even if there or no words that can answer his plea, just one character allowing another character to cry on his shoulder would do a world of good.
Re: Castiel
Date: 2010-02-13 08:37 pm (UTC)I question though, how much Dean feels like he can reach out to Castiel -- because Castiel is in exile, and in exile because of him. Castiel has admittedly lost some of his power because of his decision to side with Dean, he doesn't have the host of heaven behind him anymore, and I'm sure that Dean feels some guilt over that. And also feels that while Castiel is an ally, Dean really can't ask him for too much help because there's only so much left that Castiel can actually do. Dean has no evidence that Castiel has God's ear -- even Castiel doesn't know where God is. When Dean was out in that junkyard, he was very much appealing to a Higher Power...higher than his fallen guardian angel, for sure.
FTBYAM
What episode is this? I'm afraid that I don't memorize the names of these episodes well enough to understand their lengthy acronyms.
Re: Castiel
Date: 2010-02-14 03:47 am (UTC)I agree with your post. I think perhaps it's time that a dissenting opinion needs to be posted over at TWoP, if for no other reason than maybe Kripke will see it.
If the mods don't like it, fuck 'em.
Re: Castiel
Date: 2010-02-15 01:10 am (UTC)I feel like I'm speaking in ignorance, because I don't set foot over there anymore, but I remember what it was like two years ago and I hear that it's gotten worse. Several people have told me that "dissenting opinions" are now pretty strictly policed, so if they're posted on the main episode threads, they're likely to get edited or deleted while those posters face being banned from the boards altogether. I'm sure (or I'd hope) that on the respective "Dean" and "Jensen" threads it's still permissible to say good things about Dean and it MAY even be permissible to say not-so-good things about Sam, but I get the impression that the episode threads are the ones that the show's staff really pays attention to. At least, that's where I first started seeing so much over-the-top and inexplicable loathing of Dean, and those are the opinions that have worked their way into the show -- right along with a free-pass attitude towards everything that Sam says or does.
I remember that the series of posts that really kicked me out of there were about Dean's deal -- there were so many really angry posts about how Dean had "asked for it" how he'd made that deal "knowing exactly what he was doing" and how he didn't deserve "an ounce of pity" (someone actually said exactly this)...meanwhile Sam, who spent most of Season Three pissing and moaning about how bad Dean had made him feel, deserved all the pity in the world because his stupid, thoughtless brother had so selfishly auctioned himself off to save his life. When people justifiably pushed back against this nonsense, the mod would let it go for a little while and then stomp in and tell people to change the subject. It was ridiculous then and I hear it's more ridiculous now and why Kripke & Co. seem to have chosen a heavily biased, snark-site like TWoP as the official pulse of fandom is simply beyond me.
ETA: Guess what? I'm gonna take back what I said about it being permissible to say nice things about Dean on the Dean thread, because I just distinctly remember the lovely Barnes abruptly ordering a halt to a discussion on the Dean thread because too many kind and sympathetic things were being said about Dean. Literally, she said something like "this has gone on long enough, move on." What an asshole.
Re: Castiel
Date: 2010-02-15 10:02 pm (UTC)Re: Castiel
Date: 2010-02-15 09:26 pm (UTC)Great point about Cas' limits. I feel that there are walls between these two characters and if they are there because of the two characters, I need to see it, otherwise it seems that they are there because the writers are afraid of some elements in the fandom, which is sad.
I hate that there seemed to be gestures of innocent and genuine affection between Cas and Dean earlier in the season (FTBYAM = Free To Be You And Me, but the arm around the shoulder actually happened in the previous episode, which I think was "Good God Y'All") and in "The End", where Dean puts his hand on Cas' shoulder and says, "Don't Ever Change", but now we have very little interaction between Cas and Dean except for the one-liners. I know Cas is on his God Quest and Dean is just trying to keep his head above water, but these two need to interact in a more meaningful way, even if its just 2 minutes here and there. They seem to have wasted the chemistry - it seems like one step forward, two steps back in this TV relationship.
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Date: 2010-02-17 04:14 am (UTC)I watched the end of this episode with my hands over my mouth as I uttered useless and unstoppable endearments to Dean as if that would make it better. I am not a fan of unrealistic brotherly schmoop but tapdancing Christ it's rough watching a (fictional) person get treated the way Dean is treated week in and week out.
This is probably why I've had a string of dreams in which Dean lays down on the floor and I just pet his face while he sleeps.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-18 10:09 pm (UTC)Jensen was brilliant in that final scene, even his work with the bottle, which sort of mirrored the "will he or won't he" of calling for Michael, it was "Is he going to drink? Is he going to throw it? Is he going to hit the Impala with it?" The whole scene from leaning on the column, perched so heavily and delicately at the same time, in the basement to asking, begging, for help outside(and if you notice, he actually looks over his shoulder to see if anyone is out there, he doesn't want to be seen). I'm kind of in awe of it.