SPN 6:14: Things I can't say at TWoP

[oselle]

Still traumatized by the montage of horribleness, I tuned in to the TWoP boards to see what the reaction would be and found that...an awful lot of people liked the scenes with Lisa and Dean and Ben. Not much, if any, praise for the montage itself, but plenty of people who were really into Lisa and Dean's relationship and wanted to see it picked up again, mostly because they want Dean to recognize his own worth and to have people in his life who love him.

Then I got to the dreaded comment I knew I'd eventually see:

I was so hoping, during the scene in the car, that Dean would turn around...

The rules at TWoP require everyone except Demian to be relatively polite, so I took a few deep breaths and asked what they thought would have happened if Dean had turned the car around. Seriously, what would have happened, not just in the rest of the episode but in the series?

The response:

I like to think it could have been about the supernatural and hunting, but with a broader base for Dean. A world where Dean didn't have only "one road"...the relationship (i.e. between Sam and Dean) has been unhealthy and way too dependent, and I think it would be better for both of them to have a more normal distance between them, and to have more supports for their world than just one other person.

I responded that if these were real people in real life I'd definitely want these good things for them. I also said that even if these were fictional characters in a straight dramatic series I might want this for them. But I'm not looking for "normal" in a show called Supernatural.

But you know, that's not really what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is "you're wrong." I'm not allowed at TWoP to tell another member that they're wrong (again, only Demian's allowed to do that), so I'll do it here. You're wrong. Why? Because you're wrong, that's why.

You like the Lisa and Dean relationship and I'm not saying you're wrong about that -- that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. What you're wrong about is this "broader base" and "normal distance" stuff. You've misunderstood the show. This is not a show about people learning to have broader bases and keep normal distances between each other. It's not a show about the journey towards mature, caring relationships. It's not a show about overcoming unhealthy dependencies.

You're wrong because a show where Dean's life is more broad-based and he has a wider network of emotional support is no longer Supernatural. And if that's what you want, okay. But I really wish that people who feel the way you do would recognize and admit that what you want isn't Supernatural. If Dean had turned that car around, whatever show existed afterwards would be a different show and Dean would be a different character and Sam might very well be a different character too -- and it wouldn't matter if it was still "about hunting and the supernatural" because at its core...this show really isn't about hunting and the supernatural.

I've thought about what I said last night, regarding how I'd feel if these were characters on a straight dramatic series and how I might be okay with them growing towards a more healthy, functional life, but I take that back because the core conflict of any show is what really matters. Not what the show is technically "about."

Mad Men is technically about the advertising business in the 1960s, but it's not really about advertising. The core conflict of Mad Men is watching Don Draper precariously navigate a tightrope over the yawning catastrophe of his life, knowing that any minute he can slip off and go under (which he comes dangerously close to doing, many times). I don't want Don Draper to get off that tightrope, ever, or at least not as long as the show is still on the air. If someone were to say, "Mad Men could still be about advertising and the 1960s but I really wish Don would meet a good woman who could heal his dysfunctions and make him a whole, balanced person," I'd have to assume they like Don Draper and they might want to watch a show about advertising but they don't really want to watch Mad Men.

Another straight dramatic series that I love is Rescue Me, which is technically about New York City firefighters but it's not really about firefighting. Rescue Me's core conflict revolves around Tommy Gavin, who's a drunk and a womanizer and a general train wreck of a human being. His job as a firefighter is more or less a metaphor for the constant conflagration of his life. I don't want Tommy Gavin to get his shit together, ever, or at least not as long as the show is still on the air. If someone were to say, "Rescue Me could still be about the firefighting world but I wish Tommy would get back with his wife and take care of his kids and maybe take a desk job at the NYFD like his wife wants him to do," I'd have to assume they care about Tommy Gavin and they like shows about firefighters but they're not all that interested in Rescue Me.

Supernatural is technically about hunting boogeymen and rescuing people but it's not really about either of those things. The core conflict of Supernatural surrounds two brothers who were forced to grow up in a horribly abnormal environment and now have to navigate the rest of their lives not only with all that awful baggage but with constant external threats that reinforce the never-ending tragedy of their lives. I don't want either one of these characters to progress towards something more normal and healthy...or at least, not as long as the show is still on the air because then the core conflict will be gone. The show will be about something else. So when someone says that the show, could still be "...about the supernatural and hunting, but with a broader base for Dean...and I think it would be better for both of them to have a more normal distance between them, and to have more supports for their world than just one other person," then I have assume that they feel kindly towards the Winchesters and they like shows about supernatural things but they don't necessarily like Supernatural.

Not that there's anything wrong with that but...I'd just love to see a little awareness on this matter. If you want Dean to patch things up with Lisa, to grow enough that he can establish a normal and stable family life, and to develop a healthier relationship with his brother, and you would like to see all this play out during the next twenty-nine or however many episodes of Supernatural? Then you don't want to watch Supernatural. And with all due respect, I don't want to watch your show, either.

Comments

[shoofus.livejournal.com]

and i was terrified in exactly that same scene that dean would turn the impala around and go back to lisa and ben...

because it would mean he was giving up everything he once said he believed in...something sera seems to think would be 'edgy' and inventive and so ultra cool she'll get endless critical kudos for even thinking of it...(see tv critic meg ryan's take on sera 'reinventing supernatural' and 'giving it new life' for example)

lisa laid down the rule she wants to live by, she can't take knowing dean is out there in danger and might die...so if he was a fireman, a cop, a solider, a border patrol officer, a marshall, a real fbi guy...she couldn't take that either...

and for dean to go back to her on those terms would mean he no longer wants to save other people, just live his life quietly and safely and take care of her and ben...

no kidding that wouldn't be the show i started watching, it wouldn't even be a ghost of it...

and dean would give up everything he believed in, everything he valued in his life...for a yoga instructor and her fatherless kid...that she's not even honest enough to identify to him who the father is...yeah, talk about a good solid basis for a trusting open relationship...

[shoofus.livejournal.com]

and the utter selfishness...

but they're going to justify that by showing dean fucking up now in his hunts. oh yeah.

or making the META in the next ep the reality...if its just a tv show, why bother with any of this...its not worth the tears and pain of 40 years in hell, 100 for sam...its all...just...entertainment...

so why not quit.

this is so despicable. and sooooo ultra cool....you know..deconstruction is the coolest thing out there right...so lets deconstruct everything...

[oselle.livejournal.com]

...(see tv critic meg ryan's take on sera 'reinventing supernatural' and 'giving it new life' for example)

For real? You got a link?

[twirlycurls.livejournal.com]

"lisa laid down the rule she wants to live by, she can't take knowing dean is out there in danger and might die...so if he was a fireman, a cop, a solider, a border patrol officer, a marshall, a real fbi guy...she couldn't take that either..."

Yup, Lisa wants someone who looks like Dean but isn't Dean. She wants his hot body and his cute self, but the person that he is at his very core? She's completely uninterested. And yet we're supposed to buy this as a great "love" story.

[amber1960.livejournal.com]

Where's the 'like' button?
I may be a sap and like some hint of happiness might be lurkig at the end of all things for my hero, but once he gets there the story is over (for all the excellent reasons you've stated here) - and I don't want the story to be over.

I want them to go on suffering and fighting and being disfunctional because that is what heroes do.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

once he gets there the story is over

Exactly. I'm in the faction that would love the story to end with Sam and Dean driving off into the sunset, but I'd be okay with giving up that ending...as long as it really WAS the END. If "Swan Song" had been the last episode of the series, and the last thing we ever saw was the door closing on Lisa and Dean and then the camera pulled back and we faded to black? I could have lived with that. Because once that happens THE SHOW IS OVER, or at least, THIS show we've been calling Supernatural is over.

[cannnit.livejournal.com]

I would be satisfied if Deans emotional support was Cas - as a friend, that is :)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

As a friend. Of course.

[zatnikatel.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting post.

One of the things that drew me to the show was the notion that the brothers were drifters on the outskirts of “normal” society, on this endless road trip and living this heroic albeit brutal life, making sacrifices in service to that mission to save people, and making sacrifices for each other. It was gritty, it was different – it even looked different – and it reminded me of the westerns I’ve always loved, like Shane, Two Rode Together, The Searchers… God I could go on and on.

I do think the show makes it clear that Dean did benefit from his time with Lisa. But while I’ve had issues over what Dean gets back from his relationship with Sam, I think it’s clear at every turn how important that relationship is to Dean. And the alternative: the ’burbs, with Lisa and Ben – isn’t the show I got hooked on, and it isn’t the show I want to watch. I want to watch two brothers hunting. With Cas of course.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

One of the things that drew me to the show was the notion that the brothers were drifters on the outskirts of “normal” society, on this endless road trip and living this heroic albeit brutal life, making sacrifices in service to that mission to save people, and making sacrifices for each other.

I certainly wasn't drawn in by the plots. I never found any of the MoTWs remotely frightening, the episodes were usually predictable and the special effects were generally...not that special. But (aside from Jensen's pretty face) I was also drawn in by the atmosphere and especially by the backstory. Finally it was fanfic that really got me, especially pre-series fanfic that enlarged upon the Winchesters' horrible youth and painted such a compelling picture of how they turned into these characters. To me, that's the real story, and I think there's still plenty of that story to tell, but it seems the writers don't. When they're not telling us how awesome hunting is compared to, say, repairing copy machines, they're telling us that Dean really wants to be with Lisa and Ben...even though he looked pretty goddamn miserable when he was with them.

[twirlycurls.livejournal.com]

"I took a few deep breaths and asked what they thought would have happened if Dean had turned the car around."

Ha, that was YOU! I was cheering that post because it was what I was thinking while reading the "Dean and Lisa 4-EVA" posts and shaking my head in disbelief.

"This is not a show about people learning to have broader bases and keep normal distances between each other. It's not a show about the journey towards mature, caring relationships. It's not a show about overcoming unhealthy dependencies."

Word, word, and SO MUCH WORD.

"Then you don't want to watch Supernatural. And with all due respect, I don't want to watch your show, either."

That faint sound you hear is me on my feet, cheering you from the sticks of Minnesota.

If Dean had turned the car around this would have been a really easy call for me: SPN would have been deleted off my DVR. But he didn't, so I'll continue to watch and hope and pray that things will somehow improve.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yeah that was me. I was just sitting there astounded that all of the Dean + Lisa stuff was going almost completely unchallenged and that no one was asking the one glaringly obvious question -- what will this show be about if Lisa and Dean get back together? I've seen that clip of Dean scrambling eggs about half a dozen times and it was kind of cute the first time but I really don't want that to be half the show. Finally I had to ask the question, and I found the answer wholly unsatisfactory. I honestly don't know what these people are thinking but they really seem to want SPN to morph into a different show. I'm amazed by how many people thought Dean and Lisa simultaneously telling Ben to go back to his room was adorable -- if I want to see that kind of humor, I can find it in a limitless catalog of family sitcoms. I don't want it on this show.

[martin-rose.livejournal.com]

I wonder how much of this crap-ass storyline with Lisa and Ben is crap-ass because Lisa is not a match for Dean; none of these women are because they're perfect and coiffed and plastic. It's not authentic. And the audience feels it. Plus, Dean needs a mess to take care of, and Lisa's not a mess. However, if the writers gave her character an arc, and turned her into a mess . . . now there's potential for a more interesting story line. Most characters are often made better when they're put through a fire. Figurative or otherwise.

The story does end when Dean gets his "happy life." That's the classic hero's reward at the end of a quest -- sort of like Arthur/Merlin retiring to Avalon in the old fables. So it's not worthwhile for the writers to pursue a loving home life for Dean until they're ready to end it all. Or unless they want to set him up for something horrific down the line by pulling the rug out from under him. (Oh please god, let that be the reason for this really bad plotting.)

[oselle.livejournal.com]

However, if the writers gave her character an arc, and turned her into a mess

I really don't want any more time wasted on Lisa than already has been. I have almost zero interest in her as a character and I don't want her to have an arc or be developed in any way.

And the audience feels it.

Judging from the reaction at TWoP, a significant portion of the audience does NOT feel it, and rather, thinks that Lisa is a believable and awesome character who can offer Dean everything he truly needs to be happy (whether he realizes it or not).

So it's not worthwhile for the writers to pursue a loving home life for Dean until they're ready to end it all.

Absolutely. I think they just went into panic mode when they realized Season 5 wouldn't be the last, and they brought Lisa back into the story (entirely out of left field) to give Dean a place to go after Sam took the plunge. Then I think they fell in love with the idea of Dean being torn between his peaceful domestic life and being a hunter and now we're stuck with this dog of a storyline until the show finally does end. I don't even want them to set him up for something horrific because the NEVER know how to resolve that sort of thing...the aftermath of Season 4's devastating "Head of a Pin" taught me that. And how.

[mangokulfi.livejournal.com]

Well then, I gotta say I'm watching the show wrong. Because I no longer give a flying fig about the show's central conflict. I find the brothers' relationship so toxic and one-sided at this point that it's actually painful for me to watch Dean choose Sam over and over again while getting almost nothing in return and still other characters berate him for not doing enough/right by Sam.

I don't necessarily want Dean to settle down with Lisa and Ben or anyone, but I don't feel like this show that we're watching now is the show that we started out with.

That show was about two brothers who were in conflict at times but still had a sense of individual identity and their own reasons for doing what they did while still being mutually codependent.

This show is about one guy, his constant cosmic victimization and some other guy who is along for the ride and just happens to be his brother and number 1 cheerleader.

And beyond all of my Dean vs. Sam issues, it's so repetitive and predictable that it's as boring as mud to watch these days.

At this point, I don't care who or what Dean chooses as long as it's not all.about.Sam. Because at least that would be something that we haven't seen before.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree with you that the writers themselves have abandoned the central conflict which is why the show has been floundering so badly.

I'm not saying that there was once some golden age where everything was lovey-dovey between Sam and Dean -- there's always been tension between them. But in Season Four they really went off the rails by totally destroying their relationship and then making only the most superficial efforts to repair it -- IMO, mostly because they refused to admit that Sam had done anything wrong. Instead, they chalked it all up to his "addiction" (even though he'd fallen in step behind Ruby well before the blood drinking began), and repeatedly informed the audience (through other characters) that Dean was the one in the wrong for being stubborn, judgmental and self-pitying. The show's never gotten back on track since.

Nevertheless, when I hear people say how much they wish Dean had turned that car around and gone back to Lisa, I have to wonder if they understand what that would mean for the show, and if that's really the show they want to watch. Like Don Draper and Tommy Gavin, Dean is a character defined by his dysfunctions -- I have no interest in watching his journey to wholeness and happiness with a good woman at his side. If they want to give Dean a happy ending then fine, but emphasis on the word "ending." Considering how they had no problem suddenly re-introducing her as the love of Dean's live after we hadn't seen her for years, I'm sure they could have just as easily left her and Ben entirely out of the picture until it was time to serendipitously reunite them with Dean in, say, the series' penultimate episode. I'm irritated by the way the writers keep reminding us about Lisa and Ben to make sure we know that Dean is oh-so-torn between hunting/Sam and his One True Love/The Real Meaning of Family.

Writing this, I can't help thinking the writers should shit or get off the pot. Either get rid of Lisa altogether (and give Dean a real storyline), or give the TWoPers what they seem to want and have Dean commit to Lisa on her terms, while reconstructing the series to focus on Sam, with Dean maybe popping in for the occasional ghostbust in between Ben's soccer practices. I won't stick around to watch, but it sure sounds like that's what plenty of people want to see.

[mulder200.livejournal.com]

Honestly, Dean living a domestic life with Lisa and Ben? Boring as Hell. Why the hell would I want to watch that?

And if Lisa can't handle the fact that being a Hunter is the CORE of who Dean is, then she clearly doesn't know Dean. At all. Apparently, all she wants is an illusion and if that is what she wants, then Dean is better off without her.


Then again, that's the problem with S6. It's so BORING! The writers clearly lost the plot during S5 and now there just dragging a dead horse that clearly should have been put to pasture.

Like I said on my LJ, I 'll stick with fan fiction because at least that doesn't bore me to tears.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

And if Lisa can't handle the fact that being a Hunter is the CORE of who Dean is, then she clearly doesn't know Dean.

I can't pin this all on Lisa because I think the writers are trying to tell us that it's Dean who doesn't know himself. Perhaps Dean will see the light when the wise-beyond-his-years Ben Braeden finally teaches him the True Meaning of Family.

[oxer12.livejournal.com]

I went and looked for your exchange, but I think it's been deleted. The mod said "Deleted a lot of posts for topic. How you want the show to end or who Dean has sacrificed for his brother in past seasons aren't on topic here."

:(

[shoofus.livejournal.com]

that sounds like an obsessive and anal kind of immoderate 'moderator' to me...dumping stuff they don't agree with?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised. They've always actively discouraged real discussions on their discussion boards.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I’m kid of glad that I didn’t get to TwoP over the weekend, but sad that your attempt at logic has fallen foul of the Moderator. Presumably, asking why anyone would want the show to turn into just another soap has joined with commenting on Sam’s canon activities and questioning Sera Gamble’s ability as a Showrunner to make a holy triumvirate of things she deletes.

We’ve discussed this whole thing a number of times, and I continue to find it baffling that anyone who professes to be a fan of the show would want it to turn into something you can get anywhere rather than developing the themes that made it stand out from the herd in the first place. My only assumptions are that either they’re still hooked on Disney romances and think they’re cheated if every show isn’t about whether the guy gets the girl, or they came on board in S4 and their appreciation of the show rests on the assumption that the focus on the Sam/Ruby relationship over the brotherly bond was par for the course rather than an aberration.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Considering the level of discussion and the general atmosphere at TWoP, I consider it a sign of integrity and intellect to have a deleted comment. I stayed away from that place for years and only ventured back in recently -- I doubt I'll return. I always knew there was no place there for real discussion but now even asking a question as simple as "What would have happened if Dean had turned the car around?" is against the rules.

I continue to find it baffling that anyone who professes to be a fan of the show would want it to turn into something you can get anywhere rather than developing the themes that made it stand out from the herd in the first place.

Exactly. From soap operas to the Lifetime Network to the Hallmark Channel, there are unlimited places to enjoy shows about damaged people learning to love. Heck, just pick up any one of Nora Roberts' novels at your local supermarket. Do you really need to see the same theme explored on Supernatural?

[cannnit.livejournal.com]

I do not want another soap opera. I think however, that why I and other fans may have enjoyed the set up with Lisa and Ben a little bit, because the writers otherwise decide that Dean is all about Sam, - yaawn...

Now mind you, I do not want Dean to be domesticated, but another person who cares about Dean for who he is, would have been kind of nice. I mean since they took Cas`friendship away, all Dean do is ask and worry about Sam.

I would have quit watching other shows a long time ago, if they had developed the way SPN has. However, the magnitude of The Ackles keeps drawing me in, - though I must admit I feel somewhat ashamed that I still watch... SPN has a few soap opera "qualities" - that is mainly Sam - the drama queen of SPN. Sigh..

If season 6, avoid the wall during the last episodes, and give The Ackles more to do than worry about Sam - I could be a happy fan. Now, I have trouble tolerating/watching Sam/JP at all.

Something very strange happened during the last half of season 5 to cause the development that ended in sucky song and sucky soulless sam in season 6. I wonder if we will ever know the full extent of it!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Something very strange happened during the last half of season 5 to cause the development that ended in sucky song and sucky soulless sam in season 6. I wonder if we will ever know the full extent of it!

The only two events I know of are the obvious one (Kripke's departure and the end of the five-year arc) and Jared having some kind of meltdown around last February and having to be personally reassured that there would be a bigger role for him to play in Season 6. Good heavens, if Jensen has a meltdown, they may actually have to start writing storylines for BOTH of them!

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Just a short comment to say I'm with you oselle. I actually read your post on TWOP(didn't know it was you but I remember it) and totally agreed with it.

I have no interest in seeing Dean Winchester settled down to some sort of settled life balancing work and family. How freaking boring. I want Dean out there hunting, on the road, living a screwed up life, well for as long as the show is on TV(and that included up to and including the very last scene of the very last episode and anything that might come afterwards in the forms of sequels:).

Not to mention how could anyone love those scenes when they essentially re-wrote the relationship. They spend episodes showing us Dean considering calling Lisa and now they suddenly say he was ignoring HER calls? They have her act like SHE wasn't the one who KICKED him out?

That's why I hate and despite "ships" in situations like this and why I fight against it whenever it looks to show it's ugly head. It's like some people can't help themselves, they want some sort of fairy tale ending for everyone.

The last thing I want for Dean is a fairy tale ending(at least not a Disney fairy tale maybe those original versions where people got eaten and their eyes got poked out, etc, etc--not for that to happen to Dean but for him to continue fighting against it).

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Not to mention how could anyone love those scenes when they essentially re-wrote the relationship. They spend episodes showing us Dean considering calling Lisa and now they suddenly say he was ignoring HER calls? They have her act like SHE wasn't the one who KICKED him out?

I really think we're supposed to imagine that Lisa's six unanswered phone calls were an attept at reconciliation following their last conversation, and when Dean didn't call her back she just decided it was really over and time to move on. The many times Dean wanted to call Lisa don't really count because he didn't actually go through with it.

That's why I hate and despite "ships" in situations like this

I do too. When I want to watch soap operas I do.