(no subject)

[oselle]

Supernatural has been renewed for a fourth season...thank GOD we don't have to sweat it out until the upfronts this year.

OK, so that means they've got a whopping four episodes to make sense out of Sam's demonic destiny and Dean's hellish contract. Wonder how much of this they're going to let ride until fall.

I was roughing this out for myself today at lunch (yes, normal people watch internet porn on their lunch hour. I try to figure out Supernatural). Maybe you folks can help me out.



This is what we know for sure (correct me if I'm wrong about any of this):

1) Azazel (the Yellow-Eyed Demon) "recruited" Sam from infancy to lead some sort of unspecified demon war against humanity and/or an opposing horde of demons for control of Hell and/or earth.
2) Azazel is dead and Sam's now supposed to head up one side in this coming demon war.
3) On the other side is Lilith, the demon who's rising "in the West."
4) Unlike Azazel, Lilith was not recruiting any humans for her cause (this immediately gives Lilith the upper hand, if you ask me).
5) Demons both in Hell and on earth are lining up to serve either Sam or Lilith when the apocalyptic shit hits the fan.
6) Ruby is one of the demons lining up behind Sam.
7) Ruby initially claimed that she could save Dean, then later admitted that she could not.
8) Ruby is supposedly trying to get Sam ready to lead his demon horde. She wants to toughen him up.
9) We don't know who's holding Dean's contract, we only know it's some very high-ranking demon.

Okay, those are the facts. Now, here's what I'm speculating:

Lilith is definitely the one holding Dean's contract. I just can't see them introducing yet another "big bad" onto the show, not even Satan himself. It would just be too confusing. If it's going to be a Lilith/Sam showdown, what would Satan be doing anyway? Casually sitting back while some demon-chick and former law student duke it out for control? And we've twice had demons state that they don't "believe" in Satan, so I think the show has been setting us up for a Satanless Hell in which leadership is up for grabs.

If Lilith is holding Dean's contract, what's in it for her? Obviously, it would serve her purpose to have Dean out of the way -- provided she believes that Sam without Dean is a weakened enemy.

But I think Dean's death isn't even what's important to Lilith, it's just a means to an end. What matters is that he's in Hell. Assuming Lilith wields considerable power in Hell, once Dean's down there, she's basically got control of Sam. A running theme this season is that the brothers are each other's weakness. The Trickster flat-out said so to Sam. So Dean in Hell would be the perfect way to control Sam, either to get him to refuse the mantle of leadership or to come over to her side.

That all seems straightforward. But then I think about Ruby and her insistence that Sam needs to toughen up. In "Mystery Spot" we saw what Sam would really be like without Dean and he was anything but a weakened enemy. In fact, he was exactly what Ruby wants him to be -- a ruthless killer.

In "Jus in Bello," Dean stops Sam from sacrificing Nancy. Consider the difference in Sam from "Jus in Bello" to "Mystery Spot." "Mystery Spot" Sam doesn't even blink at the idea of draining some innocent person's blood. Yes, Sam is willing to sacrifice someone for Dean, but I got the impression that collateral damage in general isn't a big deal for this Sam. Dean isn't there to appeal to his conscience.

Now I'm starting to think that it might also be in Ruby's interest for Dean to be out of the picture. She did save Dean from the witches' curse but there could be two reasons for that. Maybe she just saw that as a way to win Sam's alliegiance. Or maybe she just hadn't figured out that Sam with Dean is never going to be the leader she wants him to be. If it's the latter, I think she's figured it out by the end of "Jus in Bello."

Is it in Ruby's interest for Dean to be in Hell? It does give Lilith that means of controlling Sam, which is bad for Ruby. But on the other hand, Dean in Hell could give Sam incentive to conquer Lilith and wrest control of Hell from her. If Dean's in Hell, why wouldn't Sam want to be the one running it? All of this plays right into Ruby's hands.

Of course the question is, how is Sam going to get Dean out of Hell? Unless the show goes with something completely lame like...Sam's been holding Dean's contract all along and doesn't even know it, Sam's going to have to get that contract away from Lilith. One way he can do that is to become what Ruby wants him to be. I think both Lilith and Ruby are foaming at the mouth for our poor Dean to be consigned to the darkest pit of Hades...and right now, it seems to me like Ruby stands to gain from that even more than Lilith.

To wrap up this endless post, I have to say something about one of the bigger complaints I see about Dean -- that the writers haven't given him any story or character arc of his own. It's always all about Sam.

If this is true, I don't really have a problem with it and I don't think it's any departure from the way Dean's been written all along. In Season One, Dean was all about finding his father and tracking down the Yellow-Eyed Demon (and dealing with Sam's mysterious psychic abilities). In Season Two, Dean was charged with trying to save Sam (or with killing him if he turned evil). Dean's never been concerned about himself and I don't think that woobifies him or makes him any less heroic. In fact, since when is being selfless not heroic?

But I think there is a story arc there, although it's not as extreme as Sam going from mild-mannered college student to apocalyptic demon king. In "Dream a Little Dream," we saw Dean claiming something that he really did want for himself for the first time. He doesn't want to go to Hell, he wants to live...he deserves to live. That's not a story arc? I think it is.

What's exciting to consider is that this change in Dean's character can ultimately save both brothers. If I'm right, then Lilith and Ruby stand to gain from Dean being in Hell. And If Dean's in Hell, Sam is lost. He either has to surrender to Lilith or assume the mantle of demonic leadership, essentially becoming a demon himself. The only thing that can save Sam is...Dean's salvation, which Dean himself finally considers worth fighting for.

Comments

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Although I don’t like the idea of it hanging over yet another summer, I’m not really sure whether they should even attempt to tie up the Deal storyline in the remaining episodes. I’m also not sure to what degree they’re hamstrung by the need to honour Cassidy and Cohan’s contracts – it would be difficult anyway, but if they’re obliged to spend part of what little time’s left on Ruby and Bela then I can’t see how on earth they can develop a whole new Big Bad and resolve the Deal storyline in the episodes that are left to them. Let’s face it, we pretty much know that one episode is destined to be all about Bela’s twagic past (yawn).

I’m still a bit confused about Lilith’s role, but it may be because of dodgy story-planning. The two times that Sam’s supposed adversary/holder of Dean’s contract has been mentioned so far (by The Crossroads Demon and Demon!Tammy) they’ve been referred to in the male gender. Whilst I know that a Demon’s appearance doesn’t have any bearing on their actual gender, from what you’ve told me I can’t imagine anyone referring to Lilith as other than female. So, does that mean that there’s another player or is it more of the two years/four years business?

I’m also very confused by Ruby’s role because, as I mentioned, I’m having difficulty in untangling the director’s intention from the actress’s limited ability. When she sounds unconvincing does that mean that we’re supposed to believe she’s lying or is it just an unfortunate byproduct? Because of that I can‘t work out who’s side she’s on (if any) or what she stands to gain from corrupting Sam as she seems to be trying to do.

I’ve never been able to quite understand Azazel’s plan. I know that the giant Devil’s Trap meant that he needed a human to unlock the Hell Gate, but surely there’d have been an easier way to do it than a decades long breeding programme? I am hoping that we’ll find out that there’s another reason why Azazel wanted a corrupted human to lead his armies. Again I’ll draw on your greater theological knowledge and ask if there’s anything about the Antichrist that requires it to be a human?

I do think you’re right that Dean’s soul is important as a lever on Sam rather than in its own right, and I have always expected that he will die. I think people tend to forget that the show is actually about Sam, and that Dean’s story will always be subservient to Sam’s. That’s not to say that I don’t want to see Dean with a decent story arc of his own, but however much we may adore him that’s not what the show is about.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

When I was writing my post, I starting thinking Holy shit, this show makes no sense! I thought it all over again while I was reading your comment!

As to wrapping up the Deal, I don't know if they're going to wrap it, but they will at least bring us down to Dean's last day in the season finale. What's going to happen at the end of that day will probably be a cliffhanger. Cassidy is a problem but Cohan's Bela is a bigger one -- they've had 12 episodes and have so far done NOTHING to fit her into this season's dual story arcs. I suspect that you're right and they're going to have to waste precious time playing catch-up with this misbegotten character.

Whilst I know that a Demon’s appearance doesn’t have any bearing on their actual gender, from what you’ve told me I can’t imagine anyone referring to Lilith as other than female. So, does that mean that there’s another player or is it more of the two years/four years business?

I'm going with "dodgy story-planning" on this one, or maybe they were purposely referring to Lilith as "he" because they thought that finally revealing her as a female demon was going to be a big "oooh!" moment. My reaction was less "oooh!" and more "bzuh?" They could have gone with another "real" demon and actually been able to use some of the traditional lore (like Astaroth, a "prince of Hell" who, according to one source, is particularly linked with America). Lilith's traditional lore is not only offensive (as discussed) but also pretty boring.

I’m also very confused by Ruby’s role because, as I mentioned, I’m having difficulty in untangling the director’s intention from the actress’s limited ability.

Hmmm, yeah. I can't figure it out either. And another question here is -- who sent her to be Sammy's personal trainer anyway? We should at least have been given an idea that she was a powerful demon in her own right, instead of just some random witch from the Middle Ages. What or who gave her the right to start ordering the supposed future boss around? Or are we supposed to assume that she just took such a pivotal role upon herself just because no one else was stepping up to the plate? With the very fate of Hell and Earth allegedly hanging in the balance, you'd think the Sam contingent would have made sure that an old pro came up to school him in how to wage a demon war.

Again I’ll draw on your greater theological knowledge and ask if there’s anything about the Antichrist that requires it to be a human?

Guess that depends on what you mean by "Antichrist." Actual references in Scripture to such a being are pretty vague on his family origins but they do make it sound like he is a human, albeit one who's under Satan's control. Fundamentalist end-timers label him as a human (I think the Secretary General of the U.N. was their most recent pick, although the thankfully late Jerry Falwell was convinced he would be Jewish). Pop culture sources seem to lean in the direction of making him either wholly inhuman (The Omen) or only half-human (Rosemary's Baby).

Is Sam really supposed to be the Antichrist? If so, then that goes against ALL of the lore I've ever heard of, which pretty much agrees that any "Antichrist" would have to be someone who wields considerable political and financial power on a global scale. I don't think Sam's going to be setting up a "one world" government or banking system anytime soon.

Very little about Azazel's motives makes sense to me and I've stopped trying to puzzle them out. Interestingly enough, Lilith is supposed to be the enemy of mothers and infants -- but I'll just shit my pants if they try to tell us, after three years, that it was really Lilith in Sam's nursery back in '83.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I'd certainly like them to get to the cliffhanger, and expect that they would have been planning to end on that, but I guess it depends on how much they need to do first whether they're going to make it. Personally, I've always hoped it'll end with Sam storming Hell to get Dean back, but from the way we're going (especially with all the Cain and Abel references) it looks more like they're setting up for a fourth season with the brothers on different sides in the war - little though I relish that idea.

Ruby is even more confusing since Kripe referred to her in an interview as being "thousands of years old". It's either more dodgy planning or those plagues she was talking about are the Plagues of Egypt! Whatever the answer, they need some serious character development there PDQ if she's going to make sense.

I don't think Sam's going to be setting up a "one world" government or banking system anytime soon.

Pity - I'd rather see an episode about that than one about Bela's sob story!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I have read....


SPOILER ALERT


That the last episode of this season will definitely take place on Dean's last day. So I'm sure they're going for the cliffhanger. Like you though, I hope they don't wind up with some scenario of the boys becoming adversaries. If they resolve that situation quickly, it'll be silly and if they drag it out all over Season 4 it'll really change the premise of the show. My biggest hope, however, is that Bela have absolutely nothing to do with Dean's salvation. Any saving that needs to be done had better be done by Sam.

Ruby is even more confusing since Kripe referred to her in an interview as being "thousands of years old".

I'm starting to feel about Kripke (and Sera Gamble for that matter) the way I felt about JK Rowling: please stop talking. If that's true about Ruby, it sounds like pure retcon to me. Maybe they realized that it was silly to have a very average demon acting as mentor to the future Antichrist. Speaking of which...

I'd rather see an episode about that than one about Bela's sob story!

If this were "real" and not a TV show, then the best thing Azazel could have done was leave Sam in law school. Manipulate things so he's on the fast track from lawyer to judge to congressman to senator to president. Then you'd really see some Antichristing, damnit!

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Hadda break this up in two due to long-windedness...

I do think you’re right that Dean’s soul is important as a lever on Sam rather than in its own right, and I have always expected that he will die.

He probably will, but they're obviously going to have to bring him back. I just can't imagine how they're going to pull it off. Sure, John got out of Hell but that didn't make him live again. How are they not only going to get Dean out of Hell but also get him back in his deliciously photogenic, bowlegged body?

That’s not to say that I don’t want to see Dean with a decent story arc of his own

Maybe I'm easy to please on this issue but I think he has a story arc, just one that's a lot more subtle and internal than Sam's. Sam had a long way to go from Stanford to hunter to potential demon king -- where is there for Dean to go?

Honestly, I'm very curious about what sort of story arc people would like Dean to have. I've heard an awful lot of criticism about this, but no ideas. I think there are viewers who'd like to see Dean eventually embrace the domesticity that they think he secretly yearns after. Not only do I not want to see that but I think Dean would get bored off his ass after a few years of driving the kids to soccer practice.

Dean's a hunter, he's always been a hunter. Unless he leaves that life, his story will always remain essentially the same -- the only thing that can change is what's on the inside, and some viewers don't seem to think that's enough or are sick of "Dean's issues." I'm definitely not. Dean's issues (and of course, his deliciously photogenic, bowlegged body) are two of the big factors that keep me stuck on this show.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I think what's happening is that people are confusing "story arc" with "destiny". Dean's had loads of character development, but the hero's journey to date has been Sam's. The other problematic thing is that early this season there were lots of hints that Dean's story was just going to be about his cutesy interaction with Bela whilst Sam was off doing the important stuff with Ruby, and everyone got very protective.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I think what's happening is that people are confusing "story arc" with "destiny".

I think you're right. Everyone's latched onto this "story arc" idea and it's not what they mean. They mean they want Dean to have a hero's journey of his own and I think that's unrealistic -- it would result in a watery, unfocused story for both of them.

But you know, I also feel like...how can I put this? Dean's already a hero. He long ago accepted the responsibility that came with his fate. His "destiny" isn't out there somewhere, he's living his destiny. A big part of the hero's journey involves the hero moving from a position of immaturity, apathy or reluctance to one of accepting whatever burden fate means him to bear. Dean did that when he was four years old. Sam's still getting there. So Dean doesn't need the journey. He's been there, done that.

I wonder how this story would have been viewed by earlier generations who weren't raised on a doctrine of personal freedom, the way we've been. I think a lot of the reason why people think Dean's character has been shortchanged is because they see him as a sort of passive doormat who's never stood up for himself, never reached out and grabbed what he wants out of life. I'll bet that a few generations ago, that wouldn't have been seen as such a negative quality.

At any rate, there seems to be an awful lot of debate about Dean's character, most of it conflicting (very often self-conflicting). I don't blame people for being protective of him (the threat of Bela was pretty stomach-turning) and I really despise it when they make him look ignorant or dense, something the writers unfortunately seem to have played up this season much more than in the past. So yeah, I understand a certain dissatisfaction with the way his character has been handled. But when people start saying that he's got "nothing to do" (or that he's selfish or a hypocrite or whatever), I'm not seeing it. He's a fucking HERO, man. Always has been.

And he's hot.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the reason why people think Dean's character has been shortchanged is because they see him as a sort of passive doormat who's never stood up for himself, never reached out and grabbed what he wants out of life. I'll bet that a few generations ago, that wouldn't have been seen as such a negative quality

It reminds me of a lot of the changes that they made to characters in LoTR when they brought it to the screen. It was as if PJ didn't think that the audience could buy into the idea that some people fight the good fight regardless of the cost to themselves because it's the right thing to do and it was what they'd been brought up to believe... and maybe he was correct.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Every single time I hear someone talking about "arcs" I think of LoTR and how, much as I loved those movies, some of Peter Jackson's choices seemed so misguided.

That's why I get nervous when I hear people clamoring for Dean to have an "arc." Remember how senseless it was to hear Aragorn say that "he never wanted" to be king? Or that painful scene at the end of TTT where Sam pep-rallies Frodo into sticking with the quest? I don't want Dean Winchester's character to be similarly sacrificed in service of some clumsy story arc.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

... Aragorn fighting Sauron to save his girlfriend's life, Merry and Pippin joining the quest by accident, Frodo only wanting to save Gollum so he can believe he himself can be saved and I won't even start in what they did to Faramir. It just goes on and on - irritates the hell out of me even now!

Sam can keep his Destiny, I just hope that Dean gets to carry on doing what he's doing because it's what he does.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Oh...so many memories!! I'd forgotten about Aragorn saving his girlfriend. I don't think that made sense to anyone, even people who'd never read the books.

I just hope that Dean gets to carry on doing what he's doing because it's what he does.

*sniff*

Me too!!

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

Fascinating. I think Ghyste may be right, and we shouldn't really expect a resolution of the story arcs this time. And your thinking makes sense to me. I've never trusted Ruby. She has her own agenda, and it's not about saving Dean or making Sam the leader. She's out for herself, and she plans to use them both for her own ends. At least that's my feeling about her. I have yet to see a real reason for having Bela in the show except as an irritant to Dean and Sam. Maybe she's just a distraction, so we're not paying as much attention to Ruby?

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Ruby's out for herself but why? As I commented to ghyste above, how is it that some random witch took it upon herself to be the future demon king's mentor? Or are we eventually going to find out that she's really something immensely powerful? I do think she wants Sam to be the leader, but again, why? And why, if so many demons are in Sam's corner, does she have to help him all by herself? As for how she feels about Dean, I think he's utterly screwed there. He's useful as a bargaining chip and if that doesn't work, he's disposable. End of story.

The only other possibility that I didn't talk about in my post is that of Dean going bad once he's in Hell and having to face off against Sam. For a number of reasons, that's not really a storyline I care to see them pursue. We've been told that it can take "centuries" for someone to lose their humanity in Hell, so I definitely don't want it to happen to Dean overnight. And I don't want them to be separated. This show is at its best when they're together -- pitting them against each other would just fuck with a winning formula too much.

I have yet to see a real reason for having Bela in the show except as an irritant to Dean and Sam.

Notice I made no mention of her. I can't even find anything there to speculate about. In an "ordinary" season she might have been a faintly entertaining diversion, but in a season where we have two huge story arcs -- Dean's damnation and Sam's demonic destiny -- she's just annoying and unnecessary.

I love your icon, btw. It's so spring-y!