More on 4:09

[oselle]

I haven't seen anyone else mention it yet, but when Sam told Dean that Ruby had "saved his life," did you think (as I did) that we'd find out she stopped Sam from committing suicide?

When Sam said that, and then in the next scene we see him drunkenly staggering to his decrepit room, I was absolutely certain he was planning to kill himself. Now, I'm sure there are viewers who would have hated this angle and would have found it completely OOC for Sam but it would have worked a whole lot better for me.

First of all, it would have shown us a truly despairing Sam, one who had given up all hope and decided that if he couldn't bring Dean back he could at least be where he was (assuming that suicides go to hell in SPNverse). Of course a rational-thinking Sam would have known this is the last thing that Dean would have wanted but here's the thing: suicidal people are not rational. Suicidal people do not see options. And seeing Sam so completely undone that he considered suicide his only course would, for me at least, have been very compelling.

Second, I think it would have been a much better re-introduction of Ruby as a mentor because she could have saved him by reminding him that this was exactly what his brother had died to prevent. Giving Sam a reason to live not just to kill Lilith but because this is what Dean would have wanted. As it is, that idea only comes up later, after Sam has already welcomed Ruby back and become her student and...boyfriend. As written, the idea of "what Dean would have wanted" is almost an afterthought.

Bleh, the more I think about this episode the more I loathe what they've done with Sam's reaction to Dean's death. That was the worst thing for me about this one -- not the necrophilia, not the Mary-Sueing of Ruby, not the logic gaps, but the wholly unacceptable way they've portrayed Sam as just moving on with his life while Dean's dead and writhing in hell. Is there a point at which Dean's going to wonder about that, too? Or is he also so dazzled by Ruby that it really doesn't matter to Dean that his brother mourned him for one lousy month and then apparently forgot all about him in favor of his shiny new life with a hot girlfriend and cool powers and an iPod in the Impala and all that?

Comments

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

Sometime earlier in the season, shit, I dunno when -- I posted something along the lines of how I keep wanting the show to give me a truly broken Sam, broken over Dean. And there was considerable discussion regarding how Sam is simply not Dean-like in his responses, blah blah, and I finally came to the conclusion that wanting Sam to be broken up over Dean -- in spite of what we saw in Mystery Spot -- just wasn't gonna happen.

This ep just rubbed ALL my fur the wrong way in this regard. It really does seem, looking back now at the early parts of this season with new knowledge, that Sam...did not entirely want Dean back. Now I think in a literal, "would you prefer to have your brother back and breathing than burning in Hell for all eternity" sort of way, Sam would absolutely 100% want Dean with him.

But there are layers, and I'm now convinced that the early funky sensation of "Man, Sam sure is low-key about Dean coming back," was pretty spot-on. I'm not saying he didn't -- only that he now had several problems to cope with, first and foremost of course, Ruby and his speshul powerz. Dean popping unexpectedly back into the picture did, beyond the shadow of a doubt, throw a wrench into the works for Sam.

Trouble is, now we can't forget that Sam just...did not grieve the way fanon and many, MANY stories this past summer suggested that he would/could. He grieved, of course, and a substantial case could be made, I guess, for saying that he threw himself into the powerz and training (and, it must be said, nookie) in order to distract himself from his grief, to set it aside until the job was done. (Hrmmm, the John comparisons, they do flow freely.)

But overall it left a dreadful taste in my mouth. The show will never address this issue because clearly it doesn't recognize that there's a problem. But I would give a lot to read a long-ass hard-hitting story about Dean coming to grips with the fact that Sam DID get on with things, that he found power and focus and pussy (the latter of which, Dean always said he should get) in Dean's absence. Sam got on with his life. Now -- only Sam could say if this is true. But by all accounts thus far, much of it is self-evident.

It sticks in the craw, it do.

Re: well...sam getting on with his life is what dean WANTED him to do

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

In some ways, absolutely: Dean wants Sam to be okay. I think, though, that Dean's version of "okay" is substantially different from what he found when he came back, right?

But I think there's a substantial difference between Sam in Mystery Spot and Sam now. Sam in Mystery Spot was an automaton -- a loner, a vigilante, a juggernaut. Sam now isn't that. The keen edge of desperation and rage we SAW in that ep are not noticeably present here. Here we have a Sam who is, if anything, softer in some ways -- he's got a lover, even if she is demonic; he's been social (one reference to seeing a movie over the summer ain't much, but it's revealing); he takes pleasure in things -- something that the earlier MS Sam quite evidently did not.

Those two versions of Sam are strikingly different, you know? You say he's enraged, furious -- but I think that was Sam in Mystery Spot, not our Sam now. This Sam seems rather more integrated into his post-Dean life, very much so -- he has coped and gotten on with it.

So for me -- and your mileage will vary, and that's absolutely legitimate -- I simply don't buy that Sam is insane with grief any longer. Maybe he got that out of his system in Mystery Spot, saw what he could become and did not allow it to happen again. I honestly don't know. But I feel badly for Dean here, and -- as oselle states below -- believe that Dean's reaction of packing up and saying, "Don't need ME anymore," was, well, fairly accurate. I don't believe that Sam NEEDS Dean, at all. Now will he do better with Dean alongside him? Absolutely! Will Dean's insights prove valuable in the long run? Almost certainly. Sam alone is NOT better off than a Sam with his brother at his side.

But Sam alone can and DID function perfectly well, within parameters. It might not have been optimal, I'm certain it was not. But it WAS livable. And that's a stark contrast with Mystery Spot.

Re: well...sam getting on with his life is what dean WANTED him to do

[oselle.livejournal.com]

he's in survivor warrior mode

I guess my problem with Sam is that I'm just not seeing the "survivor warrior" part this time around. There's a coolness between him and Dean that suggests he grew to like his new life -- it's not just survival, he actually liked his life with Ruby and Dean's return has proven to be an inconvenient interruption.

If anyone should have rage in him at this point, it's Dean -- 25 years of self-sacrifice, cast into hell for his brother's sake, horrifically tortured for months, raised up to be a divine pawn in some unexplained game, under perpetual threat of being sent back to hell and now more than a little unwelcome in the life of the only person he's ever really cared about. What's Sam got that compares to that?

Re: well...sam getting on with his life is what dean WANTED him to do

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

What's Sam got that compares to that?

I'm sure by Sam's estimation they're more than equal. But that don't necessarily make it so.

I was so encouraged by Dean's reaction to seeing Sam doing the exorcism w/ Ruby. It was so STRONG, so HONEST. To now see Dean forced to try to accept Ruby as a good guy -- when one of his last living memories before Hell was of her screaming about visiting him down there -- is monstrous. The longer the show refuses to allow Dean to be honest, the closer it edges to the shark tank. Perhaps the show wants us to see Ruby as a good guy, but the Dean the show gives us in all his forgiving nature, his eternal and never-ending tolerance of all Sam's behavior, suggests that the real saint here is Dean.

Why not just let him be pissed? Ackles would play the hell out of it (as it were), and it would BLAZE off the screen in its honesty. Not this milquetoast Dean, tugging his forelock at Lady Ruby.

Re: well...sam getting on with his life is what dean WANTED him to do

[oselle.livejournal.com]

To now see Dean forced to try to accept Ruby as a good guy -- when one of his last living memories before Hell was of her screaming about visiting him down there -- is monstrous.

Yes, and wouldn't it be interesting if after all Sam's poking about what happened in hell, Dean suddenly remembers that Ruby was down there with a ringside seat? Though of course that's not going to happen...if anything, we're going to get some revelation that Dean himself committed such unspeakable acts in hell that he "understands" Ruby now. Or, even worse, that he looks to her as a shining example of redemption: if she can be a "good" demon, then there's hope for him, too.

Let me state for the record that I loathe this idea.

Ackles would play the hell out of it (as it were), and it would BLAZE off the screen in its honesty.

YES, gives me goosebumps just thinking about it but damn...you KNOW that at least a third of the fandom would then be bitching about "oh, here we go again with Dean's issues." As if no matter how much of a pounding he takes, he's supposed to just keep on going -- an uncomplaining, self-denying and unbreakable little bulldog.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

What's really sad to me is that Dean's initial reaction to finding out Sam was with Ruby (packing up his things and saying "you don't need me anymore) now seems justified. At the time, I thought Dean was overreacting but with what I know now it's like...yeah, Dean, Sam doesn't need you anymore...not only that, but part of Sam is probably a little unhappy about having you back. What's so bizarre is that now insted of being hurt or angry, Dean's all, "I owe you one, Ruby."

As for Sam's grieving -- it's not just fanon that illustrated the way Sam would grieve but the show itself, in "Mystery Spot." Maybe because Sam already went through three months of grieving for Dean in MS he dealt with it differently now? Beats the hell outta me. The comparison to the way John reacted to Mary's death is really valid and it may have been exactly what the writers were trying to achieve. But it just feels different. John chained himself to a grim, single-minded existence where nothing mattered but hunting and avenging Mary's death but Sam really seems to be...enjoying himself. "Mystery Spot" showed us a very John-like Sam, but this week's episode did not. And worst of all, the entire season, from the premiere, has suggested that Sam is ambivalent about having Dean back and let's ask ourselves: would John have been just as ambivalent about having Mary back...especially if she had come back a mere four months after she died?

But I would give a lot to read a long-ass hard-hitting story about Dean coming to grips with the fact that Sam DID get on with things

There's something so cruel about Dean having to accept, after all these years, that Sam is in some ways better off without him that it almost seems like the sort of thing Hell would cook up to torment him. Wouldn't it be something else if that turned out to be the case? I'd give the writers endless kudos for that one but nah...I think they're going with the angle that Dean's A-okay with being the inconvenient third wheel in Sam's life just because gosh, Ruby's really is so very AWESOME.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

Maybe because Sam already went through three months of grieving for Dean in MS he dealt with it differently now?

I think a strong case could be made for it. He saw the worst it could be, and -- consciously or subconsciously -- changed his own responses when the real thing came to pass.

I can't stop thinking about the moment you mention, when Dean silently gets his bag out and starts to pack. It WAS melodramatic, in many ways -- but melodrama is basically drama, and poor Dean saw the writing on the wall there. Although this is out of character for Dean, who will ultimately accept anything Sam throws at him -- I wanted to see Dean snap, to see him simply LEAVE. He wouldn't, and didn't, and show is never going there, but that's ME inside there going, "DUDE. You're RIGHT. Go -- do something else for a while, get some space."

But I suspect that part of MY reaction was simply Sam's bald-faced lying about the whole Ruby/powerz issue. And this week's ep, even with all its revelations, did not comfort me -- Sam will not stop poking Dean about his memories of Hell, and I feel certain we will see more of that this coming week. Sam's moral code is so ambiguous -- it's okay for HIM to lie, it's okay for HIM to have secrets, but even with something as bedrock personal as one's existence in PERDITION -- if it's Dean's, it's also SAM'S. By Sam's measure. He'll pick at him until he gets those memories, because in some way, by Sam's determination, Dean doesn't get to KEEP that. He must share it with Sam, even when Sam has easily and quickly chosen earlier in the year not to do the same. Because what is Sam's is not, really, Dean's. It only works one way.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Sam will not stop poking Dean about his memories of Hell

That scene of them shouting in the car pissed me off because Sam is not asking Dean about hell with concern or caring, he's just bludgeoning Dean with it in a very childish "Oh yeah, well you're keeping secrets too!" sort of way.

Dean has made it clear that he can't talk about hell, at least not yet, and Sam yelling at him about it just makes Sam look cruel and selfish. He wants to know what happened so he's going to berate Dean into sharing this trauma with him regardless of how that will affect Dean.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

Yup, Sam is extremely little-brother in that scene. Unfortunately he's an adult now, and it's getting harder to hide behind juvenile behavior. If a friend had been held in a terrible place and tortured for four months, I would find it beyond the pale to poke at them about their memories of it, a couple of months later. If they don't want to talk? I ain't gonna make 'em. They've been through enough already.

Sam, though... Well. He just sees things Dean has and says, "Mine." I think part of it is conditioning. But part of it, well. It's just Sam.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

But part of it, well. It's just Sam.

The big problem with this is that...I mean, look. I've always been a Deangirl but part of that is because I don't think the show has ever done a good job of "selling" me Sam's character. And now they're making it worse and I don't think the writers see that at all. If their intention is for us to see Sam as a selfish, callous brat then they're doing a great job but I can't imagine that's what they want.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

If their intention is for us to see Sam as a selfish, callous brat then they're doing a great job but I can't imagine that's what they want.

No, I'm sure it's not. ::sigh:: I mean, I don't know what to say. I feel personally as if I'm inextricably caught between canon and fanon, between first season and fourth. Sam HAS changed, radically, and maybe there's some validity to the remarks that some people have a tougher time adjusting to those changes than others. I don't want Sam to be a fly in amber. But I do want to see him -- incorporate things, learn, and such instances as the insistence on Dean telling him about Hell suggest that for all he has encountered, gone through, and god knows that's a pile -- he hasn't really changed his perception that the world honestly DOES revolve around him.

I dunno, I wish I could be more reassuring. :-/

Re: yes, sam is a selfish person at heart...

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

dean let him be that way, protected and catered to him, sam grew up in the pampered expectation of being a prince, basically

When is Sam going to be responsible for his own decisions? I dunno, I think you are absolutely right about the way he was raised, no question. But I feel as if the show wants this to excuse him -- and it doesn't. It explains, it doesn't excuse. At some point Sam has to answer for his choices. I think Uriel got him to see that, and it scared the crap out of him, but it was so terribly necessary. Even Dean's eruption couldn't get Sam to acknowledge the fallacies inherent in his choices.

Man, it would be very interesting if Show took the Dallas route, wouldn't it? *g*

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

I would have infinitely preferred it had Ruby literally saved Sam's life rather than just giving his dick a jump-start.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Yes. The "saving" looked from my perspective like theatrics on Ruby's part...accompanying that other demon to Sam's place JUST SO that Sam could see her save him and thereby get into his good graces. The more I think about it the more this whole setup -- from the half-assed attempt at dealmaking to the "Ruby saved my life" to the inexplicable sex -- makes Sam look weak, stupid and selfish.

[ghyste.livejournal.com]

Like I've said elsewhere, the writers could redeem Sam's character by making Ruby bad and having Sam be aware and be stringing her along - but the show's track record suggests that things are exactly as they seem and this is yet another ham-fisted attempt at bigging up a love interest by making the leads look bad.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

For all its strong points, SPN is definitely a very WYSIWYG show, you know? Oh, how I wish this theory could be right -- but the show is so damn literal. ::sigh:: You're so right.

[muffaletta.livejournal.com]

I wish I knew what is going on in Kripke's mind to so fundamentally change the relationship that is the core of the show. And to do it in such a way that makes Sam look like a major dick to boot. I'm with you, Oselle. I never really "got" canon Sam and now I like him even less. I was so irritated with Sam last season when he seeemed more upset about Dean leaving poor Sam alone than Dean going to HELL. And now it seems, that maybe that impression on the writers' part was deliberate. I haven't gotten any vibes that Sam missed Dean as his brother and best friend. I feel more as if Sam just wanted an ego crutch and when he found an even better one, Sam really didn't want or need Dean back. Of course, Sam's glad that Dean's out of hell. It just doesn't seem as if Sam is glad that Dean is back with him.

About the moving on...most dying people say that. But I don't think they mean immediately. Even Dean seemed a little taken aback by Ruby's bra in "Lazarus."

And I would love,love, love to have Dean call Sam on his shit. Maybe then Sam would have more respect for Dean and not take him so much for granted. Dean leaving for awhile would be made of AWESOME. But no, I think Kripke will just have Dean passively accept everything and let it go. Sigh...

I'm at the point where I've almost given up on Dean and Sam and rather see Dean bonding with Castiel (which would also mean more scenes with the two pretties *g*). But I doubt Kripke will go there either. Double sigh...

[oselle.livejournal.com]

As for fundamentally changing the brothers' relationship, that's the sort of thing that has terrific dramatic potential -- but only if it's done with a great deal of care and thought. And that's not what I see happening here. Instead, they're suggesting that Sam's transfer of loyalty from Dean to Ruby is a positive and justifiable development...and based on this week's episode, Dean seems to be coming around to accept that because Ruby is so awesome and has been so good for Sam. So rather than a compelling and heartbreaking estrangement based on real conflict, we're getting this bold new Sam who's bravely moved on with his life and a passive, seemingly irrelevant Dean who's sheepishly getting in line.

I'm at the point where I've almost given up on Dean and Sam and rather see Dean bonding with Castiel

This would be very interesting but the show is going the route of making the angels into vengeful sonsofbitches while painting Ruby in such a rosy light that if Dean opposes Sam's relationship with her then he is automatically in the wrong. So if Dean bonds with Castiel, then Dean becomes the narrow-minded antagonist while bold new Sam and his demon-with-a-heart-of-gold girlfriend become the heroes.

[layne67.livejournal.com]

I don't how much we can take what Jared said about Sam into account but apparently he said this at the con

the whole Ruby thing was just a one-night, drunken, depressed, desperate type thing and that it was over,

From here

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Okay, Jared can say that and maybe Kripke even thinks he believes that but it is one MIGHTY BIG handwave to believe that a lonely 26-year-old guy and a hot demon chick (assuming demons are not exactly well known for their monastic self-control) could have one night of rug-scorching sex and then not lay a hand on each other ever again, even though they're living together. I think that's just the show's "official" line to defuse any opposition to the idea of them actually being lovers the whole time Dean was dead. I mean, come on...Dean found her in Sam's hotel room in her skivvies with her bra on the bed.